Hornets beat Mavs in Game 1

[Bigdog13]

That's fantastic, but my bigass diatribe wasn't an indictment of your fandom. I can appreciate anyone that sticks by their team through the lean times, no doubt. I was referring to your fondness for pointing out New Orleans' percieved "fair-weatherness" as if your own franchise were somehow exempt from the same behavior less than a decade ago. And the Mavericks were a decades-old Dallas establishment. :shrug:

And you're wrong about Garnett being able to shoulder a team several rounds deep into the playoffs. Dirk as well. Hell, you're watching that scenario unfold as we speak. Dirk has played great in the first round and we haven't had much of an answer for him, yet here the Mavericks are facing a road elimination game this very evening.

Fact of the matter is that nobody, but nobody can completely "shoulder" a team and get that far without the right supporting cast. Not Kobe (though he did ok the last couple of years), not Dirk, not Paul, not Shaq, not mother****ing Jordan. Take West and Peja away this year and we might be a .500 team this season. Maybe.

Lets go one at a time.

First off, I was refering to specific Hornet fans on this board not the entire fan base. So you are arguing with the wrong guy here. Every city has fair weather fans in every sport. Clearly everyone knows this. The whole thing went back to people ragging me for being a Mavs fans and talking about how great the Hornets were when I never ragged anyone about the Hornets when the Mavs had beaten them about 20 times in a row and they hadn't beaten the Mavs at home since 1998. I wanted to know where those guys were the last 20 games? So really it is my fandom vs. theirs. Again obviously every CITY has their own fair weather fans. So your "big a$$ diatribe" had nothing to do with my previous post ragging a select few Hornets fans on this particular board which I assumed you were responding to.

Remember this was the statement I made that you responded to that started this:

"I don't think half the people on this board even knew the Hornets were in N.O. until 2 months ago. " This was aimed at 2 or 3 posters here in this thread not at the entire city of New Orleans which was why I included the words "on this board" in that sentence.


2nd, I am not an idiot. Obviously you have to have some decent players around you. But if you are elite you don't have to have other elite players around you to go a few rounds. See Dirk in '05. See Paul right now. See Lebron last year. Hell it's debatable if Lebron even had many above average NBA starters on his team last year. So yes I would say thay Lebron did take his team on his shoulders and drag them into the finals last year. And yes KG took his team deep into the playoffs without any other superstars on the team. Any moron knows you need roll players and some decent starters. BUT you don't have to have another star. You are just splitting hairs on the way I word things.

[jlam]

Remember this was the statement I made that you responded to that started this:

"I don't think half the people on this board even knew the Hornets were in N.O. until 2 months ago. " This was aimed at 2 or 3 posters here in this thread not at the entire city of New Orleans which was why I included the words "on this board" in that sentence.

I'll give you this - you're right. I got carried away somewhat due to the fact that we've (we being New Orleans fans) had this thrown in our face all season by fans of other, more established franchises that like to tout a sense of entitlement over our fledgling market as though we don't matter. Not saying this is you - I don't think it is - but I have a tendency to try and get people to see things from our perspective when our fandom is dismissed. Again, you're probably spot on here.

2nd, I am not an idiot. Obviously you have to have some decent players around you. But if you are elite you don't have to have other elite players around you to go a few rounds. See Dirk in '05. See Paul right now. See Lebron last year. Hell it's debatable if Lebron even had many above average NBA starters on his team last year. So yes I would say thay Lebron did take his team on his shoulders and drag them into the finals last year. And yes KG took his team deep into the playoffs without any other superstars on the team. Any moron knows you need roll players and some decent starters. BUT you don't have to have another star. You are just splitting hairs on the way I word things.

I never claimed you were an idiot. I don't normally engage in debate with idiots. The disagreement we have here is that you seem to be seeing things in absolutes with these players. Either they're elite and can support a team on their own or they can't. I just don't buy into that as I think winning is just too circumstancial. Yes, an "elite" player is usually needed, but the right conditions have to be around as well.

The vast majority of the times Garnett got into the postseason he went nowhere. The one season they advanced to the WCFs, it was because E.T. Cassell (who made the all-star team and was 2nd team All-NBA) and Sprewell had been playing great ball to help shoulder the load.

I do agree that we're getting caught up in semantics, most likely. This part started because you think DWest isn't a superstar and couldn't carry a team by himself without someone like Paul. I don't disagree. But I also don't think that qualifies him as being "average", as you so stated earlier. Just as he benefits from having Paul to create shots for him, he makes defenses pay for diverting too much of their attention elsewhere. There have been several instances during this season and even this past series where he's basically taken the game over on offense and kept us in tight games when our offense slowed down. In my opinion, he's very above average and his all-star nomination was deserved. No, he's not a franchise player, but he is an all-star right now.

[dhussdawg]

I'll give you this - you're right. I got carried away somewhat due to the fact that we've (we being New Orleans fans) had this thrown in our face all season by fans of other, more established franchises that like to tout a sense of entitlement over our fledgling market as though we don't matter. Not saying this is you - I don't think it is - but I have a tendency to try and get people to see things from our perspective when our fandom is dismissed. Again, you're probably spot on here.




I never claimed you were an idiot. I don't normally engage in debate with idiots. The disagreement we have here is that you seem to be seeing things in absolutes with these players. Either they're elite and can support a team on their own or they can't. I just don't buy into that as I think winning is just too circumstancial. Yes, an "elite" player is usually needed, but the right conditions have to be around as well.

The vast majority of the times Garnett got into the postseason he went nowhere. The one season they advanced to the WCFs, it was because E.T. Cassell (who made the all-star team and was 2nd team All-NBA) and Sprewell had been playing great ball to help shoulder the load.

I do agree that we're getting caught up in semantics, most likely. This part started because you think DWest isn't a superstar and couldn't carry a team by himself without someone like Paul. I don't disagree. But I also don't think that qualifies him as being "average", as you so stated earlier. Just as he benefits from having Paul to create shots for him, he makes defenses pay for diverting too much of their attention elsewhere. There have been several instances during this season and even this past series where he's basically taken the game over on offense and kept us in tight games when our offense slowed down. In my opinion, he's very above average and his all-star nomination was deserved. No, he's not a franchise player, but he is an all-star right now.

I agree. Mike and Mike were talking about Jerry Krausee the other day and the blasting he took when he said that it take more than MJ to win a championship. MJ was unbelievable, obviously one of the best if not the best ever, but no way the Bulls dominate like they did without the great supporting cast he had. That supporting cast was built by management who had a great vision. They had a another great player in Pippen and outstanding role players (kerr, three headed 7 foot monster, kukoc, rodman). They always seemed to have an excellent mix around MJ.

[Bigdog13]

I'll give you this - you're right. I got carried away somewhat due to the fact that we've (we being New Orleans fans) had this thrown in our face all season by fans of other, more established franchises that like to tout a sense of entitlement over our fledgling market as though we don't matter. Not saying this is you - I don't think it is - but I have a tendency to try and get people to see things from our perspective when our fandom is dismissed. Again, you're probably spot on here.




I never claimed you were an idiot. I don't normally engage in debate with idiots. The disagreement we have here is that you seem to be seeing things in absolutes with these players. Either they're elite and can support a team on their own or they can't. I just don't buy into that as I think winning is just too circumstancial. Yes, an "elite" player is usually needed, but the right conditions have to be around as well.

The vast majority of the times Garnett got into the postseason he went nowhere. The one season they advanced to the WCFs, it was because E.T. Cassell (who made the all-star team and was 2nd team All-NBA) and Sprewell had been playing great ball to help shoulder the load.

I do agree that we're getting caught up in semantics, most likely. This part started because you think DWest isn't a superstar and couldn't carry a team by himself without someone like Paul. I don't disagree. But I also don't think that qualifies him as being "average", as you so stated earlier. Just as he benefits from having Paul to create shots for him, he makes defenses pay for diverting too much of their attention elsewhere. There have been several instances during this season and even this past series where he's basically taken the game over on offense and kept us in tight games when our offense slowed down. In my opinion, he's very above average and his all-star nomination was deserved. No, he's not a franchise player, but he is an all-star right now.

Yes, again I agree its semantics. I am not saying he is an average player because Paul helps him. I think he is an all-star because of Paul though. Someday Paul or West will leave due to trades or free agency and we will have to continue this. I also am not discounting the fact that if he is a hard worker that he might improve dramatically over the next couple of years and be what I think people are calling him now. He is a nice shooter and he does have some tools. Let's see how he does against the Spurs. His defense of a "soft" Dirk was less than impressive. He had a VERY nice offensive series though except for games 3 which coincidently was Pauls worse night as well.

I'll be pulling for the Hornets although I think it will be Spurs in 5 or 6.

[TYLERTECHSAS]

__________________

[jlam]

Yes, again I agree its semantics. I am not saying he is an average player because Paul helps him. I think he is an all-star because of Paul though. Someday Paul or West will leave due to trades or free agency and we will have to continue this. I also am not discounting the fact that if he is a hard worker that he might improve dramatically over the next couple of years and be what I think people are calling him now. He is a nice shooter and he does have some tools. Let's see how he does against the Spurs. His defense of a "soft" Dirk was less than impressive. He had a VERY nice offensive series though except for games 3 which coincidently was Pauls worse night as well.

I'll be pulling for the Hornets although I think it will be Spurs in 5 or 6.

I'll never label West as a great defender. He's a pretty good rebounder and not a liability on D, but I don't think his defense is anything other than average. His offense is, of course, his strength.

You mention that his worst game came during Paul's worst game. That's true. That was also everyone's worst game. Game 4 contradicts that a bit, as Paul was still struggling with his shot and DWest basically took over in the 3rd quarter when no one else could hit anything.

You also bring up the fact that San Antonio plays better defense than Dallas. I agree that their team defense is better and their permimeter rotations are much better. However, and this comes from some pretty avid Spurs fans, one of their bigger weaknesses is mid-range shooters, particularly of the pick-and-pop. No doubt that Dallas has some better individual defenders in Duncan and Bowen, but I still think we have the weapons to exploit the matchups. Unless Duncan gets the assignment, I really don't see anyone on S.A.'s roster that can hold West.

I'll be surprised if the series goes 5 games either way. Either team in 6 or 7 is more of what I'm expecting.

[TYLERTECHSAS]

Now, after tonight's game against the Spurs, who was saying what about David West??????????

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[jlam]

West was fantastic tonight. Chandler also played great against Duncan. His length really bothers Duncan's shot and he's great at keeping Duncan from dominating the boards.

I don't expect TD to have this poor of a game again, but the effort can't be overlooked nonetheless.

[bluecrew]

I kept telling ya David West is an All-Star....

[hambone29]

Anyone saying David West is avg or that he is nothing without Chris Paul has not watched the Hornets play much. I don't have statistics to back this, but I'd say more than half of West's points come on plays where he is isolated and allowed to either back down his defender or square his defender up and knock down a midrange jumpshot. He benefits from playing with Paul like everyone else on the team, but to say he is avg without Paul is inaccurate.

[TYLERTECHSAS]

Anyone saying David West is avg or that he is nothing without Chris Paul has not watched the Hornets play much. I don't have statistics to back this, but I'd say more than half of West's points come on plays where he is isolated and allowed to either back down his defender or square his defender up and knock down a midrange jumpshot. He benefits from playing with Paul like everyone else on the team, but to say he is avg without Paul is inaccurate.

Ditto! West is an All Star and a pure stud on the court.

[mildawg]

Go Spurs!

[Bigdog13]

Now, after tonight's game against the Spurs, who was saying what about David West??????????

Me.

How did Paul play?

[bluecrew]

Me.

How did Paul play?

Ok Bigdog I gave you the benefit of the doubt before but now i'm starting to think you have a bias against West. Just cause he doesnt "do it' for you doesnt mean he isnt an All -star...Hold on after last night a PREMIER PF in the game. I think it was you who said "judge him against the front line of the spurs"! From what I saw last night he was an MVP and Duncan was "average". Now granted its just one game in the series and Duncan will eventually get his.

[Bigdog13]

Ok Bigdog I gave you the benefit of the doubt before but now i'm starting to think you have a bias against West. Just cause he doesnt "do it' for you doesnt mean he isnt an All -star...Hold on after last night a PREMIER PF in the game. I think it was you who said "judge him against the front line of the spurs"! From what I saw last night he was an MVP and Duncan was "average". Now granted its just one game in the series and Duncan will eventually get his.

I think Paul, West and Chandler in particular played great yesterday.

I told y'all from the beginning once the Mavs were eliminated I'd be pulling for the Hornets and I was!

I was just taken aback by Chandlers defense. He did a great job. 10 and 15 and defense like that is awesome. I still don't think he gets enough credit.

As far as West goes he did great. I was shocked they let Oberto guard him as much as they did. When West started to go off I would have put Duncan on him and switched Kurt Thomas and Oberto to Chandler more but maybe Pop was worried about Duncan picking up fouls. He only had 1 or 2 the whole game though.

I still don't think West deserves to be an All-Star, not in the West. I'm sorry. He did play great on Sat. though. Looked solid. If he plays like this throughout the playofs though I'll eat a little crow for you guys and admit I was wrong.