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  1. #31
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    Re: Schilling

    Quote Originally Posted by deadawg View Post
    Terry Bradshaw?
    Terry played in a different era. When Terry came into the league, passing was just beginning to develop. Aikman had a mediocre career, especially considering the O they had. He didnt even really tear it up in the playoffs. Aikman plays for any other team, and he is considered an average player. Look at his stats, and you shalt see.

  2. #32
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    Re: Schilling

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaPup View Post
    Baseball tends to even out. Look at Chipper Jones this year, until June he was getting every break, every squib was falling and every line drive found a gap. Now a few more of those squibs are caught, and a few more of those line drives are right at someone; his average will be down closer to his career average than to .400 before the seasons over (I say he finishes at .355 and wins the batting title).

    Same thing for pitchers, one start they may throw 8 shutout innings and get a ND or give up one run and get a loss, the next they could give up 7 runs in 5 innings and win. The great pitchers will end up with great numbers.

    Glavine and Schilling's winning percentages are on par. Not to mention, Schilling played for far worse teams than Glavine ever played for. Glavine has been an NL pitcher his whole career, Schilling has onnly been in the AL for a 1/5th of his innings, but the fact that he has a better ERA than Glavine speaks volumes. Glavine has stuck around to get his 300 wins and that has hurt his numbers some, but that is part of it I guess. Although he didnt pitch that bad over his last 6 years. Glavine has over 200 more starts than Schill too.

  3. #33
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    Re: Schilling

    Quote Originally Posted by dhussdawg View Post
    Terry played in a different era. When Terry came into the league, passing was just beginning to develop. Aikman had a mediocre career, especially considering the O they had. He didnt even really tear it up in the playoffs. Aikman plays for any other team, and he is considered an average player. Look at his stats, and you shalt see.
    Aikman playing on teams that wanted to try and cram the ball down your throat hurt him as well. Emmit got A LOT of carries every game. When you are playing ahead in the game you aren't going to be throwing that often. I believe if Aikman was on a pass first team he would have put up better numbers. He was also a good leader for that team. All that being said he is not in the same class as a Montana or even Marino for that matter.

  4. #34
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    Re: Schilling

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaPup View Post
    I don't think wins are the end all to an argument, but 300+ and having barely over 200 is a big difference. Afterall, winning is what you play the game for - I would bet if Schilling had zero Championships he wouldn't even be considered, similar to Mike Mussina who has comparable numbers to Schilling but zero championships. I listed David Cone earlier, he had a better career than some HOF pitchers in terms of All-Star games, Championships, Cy Youngs, no-hitters, etc. But, he has less than 200 wins and that is going to keep him out.

    Schilling really is the ultimate borderline player, he has numbers that support either side. My opinion is that because he was never his leagues best pitcher in any season, and he's (arguably) not in the top 10 of pitchers in his era, he would need impressive numbers like 300 wins or an era under 3.00 to get in. His strongest argument is his post seasons and even then he was just once an NLCS MVP and a Co-MVP of the World Series. I think the fact that in Arizona he would not have won without Johnson (and vice versa) hurts him. Throughout his career he was the second tier of starting pitchers, and second tier players rarely get into the Hall.

    Wins=Team/Run Support
    ERA=Pitcher

  5. #35
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    Re: Schilling

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdog13 View Post
    Aikman playing on teams that wanted to try and cram the ball down your throat hurt him as well. Emmit got A LOT of carries every game. When you are playing ahead in the game you aren't going to be throwing that often. I believe if Aikman was on a pass first team he would have put up better numbers. He was also a good leader for that team. All that being said he is not in the same class as a Montana or even Marino for that matter.
    I guess the only thing that gets me about Aikman is that I would have figured his TD/INT ratio to be better, but he won the championships and that is all that matters in the NFL. MLB does not care about postseason for some reason, although Schilling's defining moment with the bloody sock will give him more cred. If there were a similar event in the NFL (QB winning SB with bloodied up, torn up ankle), the man would be a legend.

  6. #36
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    Re: Schilling

    All of this being said, I dont think he gets in. Baseball H of Fame voters have become big sticklers on the stats after some iffy ones got through. Schilling doesnt have the regular season stats that they like to see. Although 15 years from now, his 216 wins will probably be considered very good if he is still on the ballot then. We will be lucky to see another 250 game winner after this crop of pitchers is done.

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    Re: Schilling

    Quote Originally Posted by dhussdawg View Post
    All of this being said, I dont think he gets in. Baseball H of Fame voters have become big sticklers on the stats after some iffy ones got through. Schilling doesnt have the regular season stats that they like to see. Although 15 years from now, his 216 wins will probably be considered very good if he is still on the ballot then. We will be lucky to see another 250 game winner after this crop of pitchers is done.
    The only pitchers I see with a chance to get to 250-300 are Buehrle, Sabathia, and maybe Tim Hudson. Barry Zito has 115 wins and is 30 years old, but he better straighten out soon to have a shot. Buehrle isn't talked about much, but he has had a very consistent, solid career so far and is the type of pitcher that could have a long career. I could see Hudson pitching into his 40's and getting 240-260 wins. I think Sabathia has to have a major injury (or turn into Zito) not to get to at least 250. Definitely slim pickins for a while.

    Mark Buehrle, White Sox (111 wins, 29 yrs old)
    CC Sabathia, Indians (105 wins, turns 28 in July)
    Tim Hudson, Braves (143 wins, turns 33 in July)

  8. #38
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    Re: Schilling

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaPup View Post
    The only pitchers I see with a chance to get to 250-300 are Buehrle, Sabathia, and maybe Tim Hudson. Barry Zito has 115 wins and is 30 years old, but he better straighten out soon to have a shot. Buehrle isn't talked about much, but he has had a very consistent, solid career so far and is the type of pitcher that could have a long career. I could see Hudson pitching into his 40's and getting 240-260 wins. I think Sabathia has to have a major injury (or turn into Zito) not to get to at least 250. Definitely slim pickins for a while.

    Mark Buehrle, White Sox (111 wins, 29 yrs old)
    CC Sabathia, Indians (105 wins, turns 28 in July)
    Tim Hudson, Braves (143 wins, turns 33 in July)
    I would have definitely thought Buerhle a few years ago, but he is a Glavine-like pitcher with less stuff. He has dropped off considerable since his first few years. I can see him winning 15 games a couple more times, but then he would have to hang around for a while to get to 250 IMO ( I see him ending at 225 12 wins per year over the next 9-10 years).

    Sabathia has a legitimate shot because he has great stuff. I could see him getting on a good team and winning 20 games a few times.

    If Timmy Hud can keep pitching like he has the last two season, he could reasonably win 15 games over his next 5 seasons. Then, he will be 37 at the beginning of the season with 210 wins. No way he is sniffing 300, but 250 is a possibility if his smaller frame holds up. Even if he can do that, he has only been an All Star 2 times and runner up to Cy Young 1 time (without that great of a year).

    I know that Bradon Webb might could be in the talk if he hadnt played for some terrible DBacks teams through his first 2 years. He was 7-16 with a 3.59 one year and 10-9 with a 2.84 another. He will be the new type of HOF'er if he can keep it up for another 8 years. He will probably win close to 200 games but his career ERA will be around 3.30 possibly. If he can knock down another Cy Young, and project out like I said, he would be the "new age" HofF pitcher.

    Jake Peavy might be another if he can stay healthy, he has been very dominant, but his lack of ability to go deep into games has cost him many victories. His K total should be impressive and he will probably win another Cy Young or 2 before his days are done.

  9. #39
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    Re: Schilling

    I'm boycotting the Baseball Hall of Fame until Ron Santo gets in.

  10. #40
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    Re: Schilling

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaPup View Post
    The only pitchers I see with a chance to get to 250-300 are Buehrle, Sabathia, and maybe Tim Hudson. Barry Zito has 115 wins and is 30 years old, but he better straighten out soon to have a shot. Buehrle isn't talked about much, but he has had a very consistent, solid career so far and is the type of pitcher that could have a long career. I could see Hudson pitching into his 40's and getting 240-260 wins. I think Sabathia has to have a major injury (or turn into Zito) not to get to at least 250. Definitely slim pickins for a while.

    Mark Buehrle, White Sox (111 wins, 29 yrs old)
    CC Sabathia, Indians (105 wins, turns 28 in July)
    Tim Hudson, Braves (143 wins, turns 33 in July)
    Buehrle is way under-rated. He already has one ring and battles even when he doesn't have his best stuff. I have really enjoyed watching him. On the other hand I have always thought Zito was overrated. I can't see him in the HOF. No way. On the flip side I don't think a certain amount of wins should equate HOF consideration. I have seen too many spare pitchers have a lot of wins because they were on good team or got great run support. I remember a few years ago Rick Helling was racking up quite a few wins with the Rangers despite pitching terribly. He got amazing run support though almost every time he pitched.

  11. #41
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    Re: Schilling

    Quote Originally Posted by dhussdawg View Post
    I guess the only thing that gets me about Aikman is that I would have figured his TD/INT ratio to be better, but he won the championships and that is all that matters in the NFL. MLB does not care about postseason for some reason, although Schilling's defining moment with the bloody sock will give him more cred. If there were a similar event in the NFL (QB winning SB with bloodied up, torn up ankle), the man would be a legend.
    Aikman's TD/INT: 165/141
    Bradshaw's TD/INT: 212/210

    No one loves TB more than I, but you just can't look at stats for an NFL qb. Like you said, championships are what really matter.

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    Re: Schilling

    Quote Originally Posted by deadawg View Post
    Aikman's TD/INT: 165/141
    Bradshaw's TD/INT: 212/210

    No one loves TB more than I, but you just can't look at stats for an NFL qb. Like you said, championships are what really matter.
    How many times can I say that TB was a revolutionary player? He played in the 3 yards and a cloud of dust era. There was nothing revolutionary about Aikman, he was a good QB who got the job done (always overrated in my book). If we are going to go there, how about Bradshaw's 32 rushing TD's to Aikman's 9? How about Terry throwing for over 23 TDs (Aikman's highest in a single season) three times in a running era? I will say that each of their first couple of years did some brutal things to their overall stats.

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    Re: Schilling

    Quote Originally Posted by dhussdawg View Post
    How many times can I say that TB was a revolutionary player? He played in the 3 yards and a cloud of dust era. There was nothing revolutionary about Aikman, he was a good QB who got the job done (always overrated in my book). If we are going to go there, how about Bradshaw's 32 rushing TD's to Aikman's 9? How about Terry throwing for over 23 TDs (Aikman's highest in a single season) three times in a running era? I will say that each of their first couple of years did some brutal things to their overall stats.

    TB also called ALL of his own plays for his entire career. I think Schilling has a good shot.

  14. #44
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    Re: Schilling

    Quote Originally Posted by dhussdawg View Post
    How many times can I say that TB was a revolutionary player? He played in the 3 yards and a cloud of dust era. There was nothing revolutionary about Aikman, he was a good QB who got the job done (always overrated in my book). If we are going to go there, how about Bradshaw's 32 rushing TD's to Aikman's 9? How about Terry throwing for over 23 TDs (Aikman's highest in a single season) three times in a running era? I will say that each of their first couple of years did some brutal things to their overall stats.

    I call BS on that post DHUSS. While I think Bradshaw was better than Aikman. Aikmans teams were 3 yards and a cloud of dust teams. This running era crap doesn't apply when you consider that Emmit was coming close to setting records for the most carries in a season. The Cowboys force fed the ball to Smith. Aikman never had the chance to be a numbers type of qb. Aikman was a very good QB. Not at Bradshaws level but very good. If not for Barry Switzer he might have won 4 Superbowls in a row. Teams don't do that with an ordinary qb at the helm.

  15. #45
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    Re: Schilling

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdog13 View Post
    I call BS on that post DHUSS. While I think Bradshaw was better than Aikman. Aikmans teams were 3 yards and a cloud of dust teams. This running era crap doesn't apply when you consider that Emmit was coming close to setting records for the most carries in a season. The Cowboys force fed the ball to Smith. Aikman never had the chance to be a numbers type of qb. Aikman was a very good QB. Not at Bradshaws level but very good. If not for Barry Switzer he might have won 4 Superbowls in a row. Teams don't do that with an ordinary qb at the helm.
    He was good, a hall of famer no doubt by NFL standards. He is the cornerstone of my schilling argument though. Was Aikman ever the best QB in his league? Top 5 a few years, but for the most part, he wasnt blowing you away especially when you had quite a few guys having phenomenal years (Favre, Elway, Marino, Vinny even threw in some good years for good measure). Schilling's stats arent going to blow you away from his regular season, although he was regarded as a top 5 pitcher in his league (runner up 3 times) for quite a few years. He was lights out in the postseason and has three rings to show for it. All this to sum up, he is the Troy Aikman of baseball with a better regular season resume.

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