What is also ridiculous to me is that even with the highest earners paying FAR MORE than their fair share, we are still nowhere close to balancing the government books!
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What is also ridiculous to me is that even with the highest earners paying FAR MORE than their fair share, we are still nowhere close to balancing the government books!
our government is just like the undisciplined lower middle class -- we get a raise and it is spent before the money even gets to the bank. now we're struggling just to pay all the credit card bills.Originally Posted by randerizer
actually, with the government it is the other way around. we spend the money and THEN get the raise because we can get a raise any time we want one.
Far more than fair? Do you mind if I ask Guisslapp's question about how you measure fair?
Honest questions for those saying the current tax structure isn't working:
If you lived in a box and didn't know what other people paid in taxes, is it worth what you pay in taxes to live in America? Are you getting what you paid for? Assume your nationality was like a country club membership, would you be leaving Bushwood and applying for Britainshire?
Well, there you go....wanting to use "the man's" question rather than using your own. So typical...
I measure fairness as the extent to which someone pays market value for what they receive.
I can tell you what I do know -- I think I should pay maybe 10% of the taxes that I do pay, given the services rendered. And for almost every service I "use," I am quite sure I could get greater or equal quality/quantity for less or equal pay in the open market.
Really? So say you are making $100K a year and you pay $24K a year in taxes. (http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm) Let's say with state and municipal, it's up to $35,000. Do you *seriously* think the services provided to you as an American making $100,000 are only worth something along the lines of $3,500? Police, fire, defense, transportation, etc... I think you may be a little idealistic.
Where in the open market offers a better ROI?
To only have 35k in taxes would be a significant improvement in my overall tax burden.
Yes -- I think that police, fire, defense, transportation, etc., would be close to 10% of my current tax burden.
Concerning the open market, the unfortunate thing is that there is no real open market for services that would compete with the government's forced services. It's not like I can elect to NOT use the government police force, not pay that portion of my tax, and use a private service that is more attractive.
I suggest you add to that number combined SS/Medicare taxes of 15.3% up to the maximum taxable limit of 102k per person/per employer/per year, with a 2.9% medicare tax on all income over that threshhold.
I also suggest you add to that number such things as sales taxes, use taxes (tolls, gas taxes, etc.), punitive taxes (liquor/cigarette taxes, etc.), registration fees, etc., as well duties on foreign goods, etc. And you can really add to that any corporate taxes to the extent that they reduce your income in the form of dividends or stock gains as an owner of the company being taxed.
I am only talking about federal income tax. Social Security is a whole 'nother ball of wax.
Consider the open market being other countries. Are their other countries that offer those services for less cost?
I understand your pitch, but the US was set up on the idea of providing a haven of freedom - not being a club. The idea was to give people as much autonomy as possible. The idea was not to have the government provide everything for us or solve all our problems. Comparing the US to other countries is not as important as comparing the US to what it could and should be.
Jordan Mills on choosing Tech:
“It’s a great experience seeing them play. It was a good atmosphere. The fans stood up the whole game and never sat down. They have a great fan base.”
Some things, like national defense on the federal level, and police/fire/roads on a more local level, are best provided if we all chip in (thru taxes). These are basic economic concepts. In other words, it makes logical sense to provide such services thru a public (government) means. So, such items need to be left out of the argument.
I can simplify this discussion in two ways:
1) get a copy of the federal budget and take a gander where your tax dollars are going. It'll make your blood boil. And! whether you are Con or lib, you'll find things that you don't want your taxes spent on.
2) I think every taxpayer should get an itemized bill from the GOV. (fed, state, local) showing your portion of payment for such items as:
$10 million to a senator so he could set up a dummy company so his kids, grandkids, nieces, nephews could have "summer jobs."
or
the National Science Foundation's numerous hand-outs for things like trips to Cancun for spring break!
or
Sam Donaldson being paid $1.5 million annually NOT to raise sheep on his cattle ranch...
The whole system is out of control.
Not as important, but I do think it is important to step back and see what we are doing on the global scale. If our country provides the opportunity and protection that it does for less than other countries, that could give a good sense of whether taxes are "fair". I would like to know what someone making $250,000 pays in taxes in Great Britain or Canada. I think that is a good exercise.
Not even just from an economy of scale...as far as police/military, these MUST be provided by the government if the Rule of Law is to have any power. The government has a monopoly of force BECAUSE our founding fathers agreed to delegate that to them so that we would not have to hire mercenaries to resolve disputes. Talk about civil unrest.
But on the other hand, the founding fathers were smart enough to realize that since we were WILFULLY delagating supreme military power to the government, that it needed to be a government of limited power. Otherwise tyranny would be inevitable.
Jordan Mills on choosing Tech:
“It’s a great experience seeing them play. It was a good atmosphere. The fans stood up the whole game and never sat down. They have a great fan base.”
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