VP "Debate" Thread

[Poisso3]

JOE BIDEN’S 14 LIES TONIGHT

1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.

2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.

3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”

4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.

5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.

6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.

7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people's health insurance coverage -- they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false

8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax.

9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.

10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation -- he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.

11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.

12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.

13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”

14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won't pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan.

He can always blame his gaffes on the over use of botox and his bad hair plugs...


A few things I noticed about the debates that I have not seen anywhere:

1) Palin's mic was left on at the end in what could have been some "hope" by the media that she would say something they could use against her.
2) Biden has a kitchen table too.
3) Biden is from a small town too...actually several small towns.
4) Biden has a son going to Iraq too.
5) How creepy was Biden when he had both his hands on Palin's youngest daughter's shoulders and he appeared to be keeping her in her place close to him...

[TYLERTECHSAS]

The republicans do as they always do for debates. They lower the expectations. Palin did better than what the public thought she would do.

Actually, it's the liberal, bias media that helps lower expectations by unfairly pointing out Palin's mistakes and not Biden's or Obama's week end and week out. Likewise, things such as SNL making fun of Palin as being stupid are what try and do exactly what you just stated. The liberal press and media types, as well as dems in general, belittling and always thinking they are smarter (huge egos) and just pure hatred comes back to bite them in the arse most of the time.

Oh, and IMHO, Sarah Barracuda Palin kicked Biden's arse where it counts. And that is with the down home everyday American which she understands and connected with and Biden couldn't and didn't.

[TYLERTECHSAS]

she killed


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPYZ9EQs-oM

BUMP!

[DogtorEvil]

Gwen Ifill asked no questions on:

energy
abortion
guns

[DogtorEvil]

JOE BIDEN’S 14 LIES TONIGHT

2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1dSP...ustasblog.com/

[johnnylightnin]

Gwen Ifill asked no questions on:

energy
abortion
guns

Yep...with Biden's recent comments about his private conviction on what amounts, in his view, to murder I would've been interested to hear them discuss it.

[TYLERTECHSAS]

Ifill wasn't going to touch those with a ten foot pole. Not with Biden being Catholic but not supporting his church's beliefs at least on the abortion issue. And Ifill sure didn't want to bring up Obama's love and support, via voting for, the killing of botched aborted babies that are still alive and partial birth abortion. They really don't want that one out there for Joe Public to hear.

[CARTEK]

Gwen Ifill asked no questions on:

energy
abortion
guns

Gwen Ifill sucked and both Palin and Biden should be pissed that she was such a weak-assed moderator. Her questions sucked; some weren't even questions they were statements designed to get a response.

[PawDawg]

Gwen Ifill sucked and both Palin and Biden should be pissed that she was such a weak-assed moderator. Her questions sucked; some weren't even questions they were statements designed to get a response.

"Didn't Gwen did an excellent job tonight? Stand up Gwen!"

[MattB]

The republicans do as they always do for debates. They lower the expectations. Palin did better than what the public thought she would do. They did the same thing they did with Bush - if you lower the expectations enough, it will be a victory no matter how bad it was. That puzzles me about the American people and what they want in a President and Vice President.

I will give her some props, though. She is warm, reaches out to people, and connects with people. That is something that is difficult for Biden to do. She did that last night and did it well.

On the downside, I don't think she knows a whole lot. She was well rehearsed to answer what she did know and, when she didn't, go back to something that she did. Good trick, but very noticeable.

She is not who I would want a heartbeat away from being President.

Right now, it appears Obama is heading for a landslide victory. Anything can happen between now and election day, so that is no assurance, but the polls show that most agree with me on this.

It will be interesting to see if McCain gets a boost from this. I think Palin gets a boost, but don't know if that will transfer to McCain.

Good post Champ. I don't have a dog in this fight (crazy Ron Paul supporter here) but all Palin had to do was 1) not drool on herself and 2) not fall off the stage to "win" this debate. So, this was a "victory" for her in that sense. I don't think she is stupid, but she really is not ready to be number 2 in line for the throne. Scary to think about actually.

And if I hear another Mavrick(sp) quote from her in that horrible yankee accent, and she is NOT talking about Top gun, my head is going to explode. Youuuuu betchaaaa!

[DFWDawg]

I very much liked Sarah Palin in the debate. She is a breath of fresh air when compared against the old tired Washington insiders. I do agree with a couple folks that she is too coached. She really just needs to be herself and give the practical responses that she already knows well and would come out more genuine. Her weak spot is foreign policy so she has to be coached on that some but domestic issues with economy and energy independence she holds all the cards. Overall I feel Sarah is someone I can relate to and has had many of the challenges most of us face. That would be an asset as VP consulting McCain and making sure any of his policies are in line with what America needs.

She did really good every time Biden brought up GW and telling him to lets not focus on the past and look forward to what McCain will do. Having said that McCain really needs to put his plan together and sell it hard. It would be about energy independence which would translate into a lot of new jobs and boost our economy. It might not hurt to bring up Pickens and that he would seek him out as an advisor. He would also either keep the GW tax cuts or even lower them further. Since Obama is going to hard sell the government ran healthcare McCain has to explain why that is not as good an option of giving a tax credit for us to get our own healthcare. There is a lot he could do on that one to beef up that plan and show how we could go about getting affordable healthcare of our choice and maybe incentives for group discounts of some fashion. Or giving tax incentives to healthcare providers to provide offerings that fit with his tax credit. There are a lot of other options as well and he needs to really put some time pulling those together as an offering normal folks can understand. Mitt Romney could help him with this I think and I might put him out front and center to explain how it would work.

What the republicans have yet to do well is explain how the current financial crisis with Fannie and Freddie were attributed to the democrats with Obama and Dodd right there in the center of the problem. He needs to question their judgment and foresight about not seeing how forcing banks to lend to those that could not afford an expensive house were able to do so and the ramifications that led to the current financial crisis.

Those kinds of things might help with independents or those that have not made up their mind. What I have observed is that most people are either hard core liberals and want government to run everything or are conservative and believe in less government and lower taxes. Neither of these groups are going to change their mind. For example, many of the liberals do not care that Obama has no experience aside from writing books about himself so no need to spend much time explaining that. The best thing McCain can do is get Sarah Palin on every TV and Radio show in the next four weeks and let her enthusiasm and passion that made her a great Governor sell her as a VP and sell McCain. The republicans need to pull the muzzle off of her and let her answer and talk. If I was McCain I would not hold another rally without Sarah there to speak to. She draws large crowds and a lot of people are curious about her. The spin machine was in full effect last night and they would have you believe women will not vote for her but many of the women that supported Hillary Clinton are backing her and if she connects with my wife she must connect with other women as well.

One thing I wish both sides would clarify is what they consider as the middle class. I think Obama has said several things but for an individual 100-150K seems to come up a lot. John McCain has not really put a dollar figure on it that I can remember. With inflation over time and even today 150K might not be rich in the eyes of people making that much money and it sure isn't for a small business owner. If you do make that much you get hammered with AMT and high tax bracket already so if Obama wants to do wealth redistribution I would prefer he go a bit higher maybe to a million or more. I would not do his idea of putting heavy taxes on corporations and the oil industry because that will just be passed down to us or run them off to another country. My biggest concern with Obama is taxes and spending and now that we are forking over 700 billion for the bailout I do not see how we have the money to fund new social programs without major cutbacks elsewhere. I am concerned cutbacks may come from the military and if that happens the bad guys will be lining up ready to take over Iraq or whereever Obama removed troops or reduces force size.

I think Obama is liked as a statesman and a good speaker and a lot of people like him because of that and since McCain is not all that good at public speaking I think he has got to let Sarah loose in the next few weeks for the republicans to win. From my reading Obama has done a better job at signing up new voters in key states and that may be McCain's downfall. McCain would play by the rules and I think the DNC will pull out all stops with even some "voting irregularities" to see he wins. I think it will be a tight race and will go either way but really hope McCain is able to pull this out over the next few weeks.

[Bigdog13]

Good post Champ. I don't have a dog in this fight (crazy Ron Paul supporter here) but all Palin had to do was 1) not drool on herself and 2) not fall off the stage to "win" this debate. So, this was a "victory" for her in that sense. I don't think she is stupid, but she really is not ready to be number 2 in line for the throne. Scary to think about actually.

And if I hear another Mavrick(sp) quote from her in that horrible yankee accent, and she is NOT talking about Top gun, my head is going to explode. Youuuuu betchaaaa!

Again shocked and amazed and how many people say that when Obama's resume is just as light as hers. Paper thin in fact. Would you rather have someone learning on the job at VP or at POTUS??? Now THAT is scary to think about.


For the record I am voting for neither of them and I thought the debate was fairly even. I saw several times when Palin could have had a very good comeback but failed to say anything. Biden was the same old, same old Washington company man.

This country really does need a change, problem is McCain and Obama ain't it.

[rockdog]

I realize this board is mainly dominated by Republicans...but guys don't completely overlook things because of party lines. As I mentioned earlier, I am not voting for either of the Big 2. I watched the debate. It wasn't very good. Palin did better than I expected. Biden did not attack as much as I thought he would. Overall though...I don't think it changed anyone's mind.

The part that is confusing to me is how many of you are calling out Biden for stretching and out right lying about some facts. Yahoo posted this today, and I think it is a good read. Don't let party lines get in the way of facts.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081003/...ate_fact_check

Some examples of facts cast adrift in the debate:
PALIN: Said of Democratic presidential candidate Obama: "94 times he voted to increase taxes or not support a tax reduction."
THE FACTS: The dubious count includes repetitive votes as well as votes to cut taxes for the middle class while raising them on the rich. An analysis by factcheck.org found that 23 of the votes were for measures that would have produced no tax increase at all, seven were in favor of measures that would have lowered taxes for many, 11 would have increased taxes on only those making more than $1 million a year.
___
BIDEN: Complained about "economic policies of the last eight years" that led to "excessive deregulation."
THE FACTS: Biden voted for 1999 deregulation that liberal groups are blaming for part of the financial crisis today. The law allowed Wall Street investment banks to create the kind of mortgage-related securities at the core of the problem now. The law was widely backed by Republicans as well as by Democratic President Clinton, who argues it has stopped the crisis today from being worse.
___
PALIN: Criticized Obama's "plan to mandate health care coverage and have universal government run program" for health care, and added: "I don't think it's going to be real pleasing for Americans to consider health care being taken over by the Feds."
THE FACTS: Wrong on several counts. Obama's plan does not provide for universal coverage, only mandates insurance for children and doesn't turn the system over to the government. Most people would still get private insurance through their work. Obama proposes that the government subsidize the cost of health coverage for millions who have trouble affording it and he'd set up an exchange to negotiate prices and benefits with private insurers — with one option being a government-run plan.
___
BIDEN: Warned that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's $5,000 tax credit to help families buy health coverage "will go straight to the insurance company."
THE FACTS: That's not surprising — the money is meant to pay for health insurance. The Obama campaign tried to capitalize on the candidates' health care exchange by issuing an ad Friday contending that the Republicans can't explain "the McCain health tax."
___
PALIN: "Two years ago, remember, it was John McCain who pushed so hard with the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reform measures. He sounded that warning bell."
THE FACTS: Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska led an effort in 2005 to tighten regulation on the mortgage underwriters — McCain joined as a co-sponsor a year later. The legislation was never taken up by the full Senate, then under Republican control.
___

BIDEN: Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."
THE FACTS: Biden is repeating a favorite saw of the Obama campaign, and it's misleading. McCain supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't single out any one industry for that benefit.
___
PALIN: Said the United States has reduced its troop level in Iraq to a number below where it was when the troop increase began in early 2007.
THE FACTS: Not correct. The Pentagon says there are currently 152,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, about 17,000 more than there were before the 2007 military buildup began.
___
BIDEN: "As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry — deregulate it and let the free market move — like he did for the banking industry."
THE FACTS: Biden and Obama have been perpetuating this distortion of what McCain wrote in an article for the American Academy of Actuaries. McCain, laying out his health plan, only referred to deregulation when saying people should be allowed to buy health insurance across state lines. In that context, he wrote: "Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."
___
PALIN: Said Alaska is "building a nearly $40 billion natural gas pipeline, which is North America's largest and most expensive infrastructure project ever to flow those sources of energy into hungry markets."
THE FACTS: Not quite. Construction is at least six years away. So far the state has only awarded a license to Trans Canada Corp., that comes with $500 million in seed money in exchange for commitments toward a lengthy and costly process to getting a federal certificate. At an August news conference after the state Legislature approved the license, Palin said, "It's not a done deal."
___
PALIN: "Barack Obama even supported increasing taxes as late as last year for those families making only $42,000 a year."
BIDEN: "The charge is absolutely not true. Barack Obama did not vote to raise taxes."
THE FACTS: The vote was on a nonbinding budget resolution that assumed that President Bush's tax cuts would expire, as scheduled, in 2011. If that actually happened, it could mean higher taxes for people making as little as about $42,000. But Obama is proposing tax increases only on the wealthy, and would cut taxes for most others.
___
PALIN: Said a McCain-Palin administration "will support Israel," including "building our embassy ... in Jerusalem." THE FACTS: Moving the U.S. Embassy from its present location in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is a perennial promise of presidential candidates courting the Jewish-American vote. In fact, moving the embassy is actually required by U.S. law. But successive administrations of both parties, including George W. Bush's, have made the same pledge only to find that the realities of Middle East peacemaking have forced them to invoke a waiver to delay it. Jerusalem is claimed as a capital by both Israel and the Palestinians and Israel's occupation of east Jerusalem is not internationally recognized. The city's status is one of the key issues of disagreement in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

[Bigdog13]

How come in these debates when a Biden or Obama tell America that it would take 100 years to get the oil out of Alaska the GOP debater doesn't shoot back that the Democrats said that 10 years ago???? Do we want to be having another debate in ten years thinking the same thing?? Drill now. I would be hammering on this if I were McCain/Palin.

[MattB]

Again shocked and amazed and how many people say that when Obama's resume is just as light as hers. Paper thin in fact. Would you rather have someone learning on the job at VP or at POTUS??? Now THAT is scary to think about.


For the record I am voting for neither of them and I thought the debate was fairly even. I saw several times when Palin could have had a very good comeback but failed to say anything. Biden was the same old, same old Washington company man.

This country really does need a change, problem is McCain and Obama ain't it.

Find where I said Obama was great. I was talking about Palin, and Palin only here. I'm not voting for either of them as well.