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Thread: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

  1. #76
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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaPup View Post
    To give you a visual:

    Strike zone in the 60's:
    Looking at that picture gives me an idea. Dare we debate who was the greatest hitter of all time?:icon_wink:
    Go Tech!

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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawgpix View Post
    I have stayed off this thread until now. I have finally read through the posts and I'll have to go along with Glen and Dwayne (I can't believe I just wrote that . . . both names in the same sentence, no less).

    Gibby was a pitcher for all ages. More pitcher than thrower, but definitely a pitcher.
    I have no problem with people saying Gibson was better, I originally intended only to prove he wasn't the reason for the rule changes. Who was better is a matter of opinion and everyone is entitled to theirs. Maddux pitched in a tougher time for pitchers than Gibson did, I don't think that is really debatable, but that doesn't necessarily mean Gibson wouldn't have been just as successful in the 90's as he was in the 60's.

  3. #78
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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaDawg View Post
    Looking at that picture gives me an idea. Dare we debate who was the greatest hitter of all time?:icon_wink:
    Maybe the second best hitter of all time?

    And Teddy Ballgame missed two stints due to military service....

    He is the Led Zepplin of hitters -
    ''Don't be a bad dagh..."

  4. #79
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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne From Minden View Post
    Maybe the second best hitter of all time?

    And Teddy Ballgame missed two stints due to military service....

    He is the Led Zepplin of hitters -
    Darn it, now I've got to come up with someone else. Hmmm, - - - I give up.
    Go Tech!

  5. #80
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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaPup View Post
    A fresh arm is always better than a tired one. Could Gibson pitch longer than Maddux? I don't know. The stats I posted earlier say he threw about 8 innings more per season than Maddux. I think the mentality in the 60's was "finish what you started", even if Gibson was tired he would go out the last inning. Today's mentality is it's better to remove a pitcher too soon than too late. When you have Billy Wagner or John Rocker in the bullpen why not use them? How many pitchers today throw complete games that aren't shutouts? Very few, if any. A complete game is only thrown today for personal accomplishments like a shutout, otherwise a reliever comes in. If Gibson played today I doubt he would have all those complete games because managers are too careful with their highly paid superstars to risk anything, they're too scared of having a Grady Little situation of leaving a guy in too long. Today is all about money, pitch counts, calculated risks, scouting reports, and in-depth statistics. Bob Gibson never had a pitch count or a stat on what the next hitter did against him in the 7th inning of a tie game in St. Louis or a manager who said, "I'm paying this guy $12 million, I'm not going to risk him getting hurt when we have a lead and a lights out closer"

    How bout this; If you had Bob Gibson on the mound in game 7 of the world series, leading 2-1 going to the ninth. He's thrown 132 pitches already (and pitched games 1, 3 and 5), Eric Gagne in his prime is sitting in the bullpen ready to go. Who do send out in the ninth?



    What's harder to hit? 6 inches off the plate but between the belt and knees or a pitch that could be anywhere between your armpits and knees and 3 inches off the plate?

    What keys stats say Gibson was better? Wins? Maddux has 100 more. Strikeouts? Maddux has more. Innings Pitched? Maddux has more. Winning %? Maddux is higer. Cy Young's? Maddux has more. ERA? Gibson 2.90, Maddux 3.16. The only stat Gibson has significantly better numbers than Maddux in is shutouts and complete games.
    Gibson

  6. #81
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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaPup View Post
    A fresh arm is always better than a tired one. Could Gibson pitch longer than Maddux? I don't know. The stats I posted earlier say he threw about 8 innings more per season than Maddux. I think the mentality in the 60's was "finish what you started", even if Gibson was tired he would go out the last inning. Today's mentality is it's better to remove a pitcher too soon than too late. When you have Billy Wagner or John Rocker in the bullpen why not use them? How many pitchers today throw complete games that aren't shutouts? Very few, if any. A complete game is only thrown today for personal accomplishments like a shutout, otherwise a reliever comes in. If Gibson played today I doubt he would have all those complete games because managers are too careful with their highly paid superstars to risk anything, they're too scared of having a Grady Little situation of leaving a guy in too long. Today is all about money, pitch counts, calculated risks, scouting reports, and in-depth statistics. Bob Gibson never had a pitch count or a stat on what the next hitter did against him in the 7th inning of a tie game in St. Louis or a manager who said, "I'm paying this guy $12 million, I'm not going to risk him getting hurt when we have a lead and a lights out closer"

    How bout this; If you had Bob Gibson on the mound in game 7 of the world series, leading 2-1 going to the ninth. He's thrown 132 pitches already (and pitched games 1, 3 and 5), Eric Gagne in his prime is sitting in the bullpen ready to go. Who do send out in the ninth?



    What's harder to hit? 6 inches off the plate but between the belt and knees or a pitch that could be anywhere between your armpits and knees and 3 inches off the plate?

    What keys stats say Gibson was better? Wins? Maddux has 100 more. Strikeouts? Maddux has more. Innings Pitched? Maddux has more. Winning %? Maddux is higer. Cy Young's? Maddux has more. ERA? Gibson 2.90, Maddux 3.16. The only stat Gibson has significantly better numbers than Maddux in is shutouts and complete games.
    See post Post 36 - the post season stats alone would do it.

    Longevity reaches the point of diminishing returns - is Jamie Moyer better than Gibson or MAddux?

    They both averaged around 15 wins per season, MAddux had a slightly higher winning %. I don't have the stats on me at the minute but I'm pretty sure Gibson had better hits to innings pitched and strike outs to innings pitched ratios.

    I also want to go back and see what % of starts were complete games. Being able to finish a game is a good measure of a COMPLETE pitcher.

  7. #82
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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by glm47 View Post
    I also want to go back and see what % of starts were complete games. Being able to finish a game used to be a good measure of a COMPLETE pitcher.
    The game is not played the same way. It's like saying being able to punt and play defense is a good measure of a college quarterback. It used to help the team - but it isn't the way the game is played now.

    The managers don't think the same way. I'm guessing most current MLB managers would disagree with your hypothetical choice above. I'm not saying you wouldn't win that game with your choice - I'm saying that probably 28-29 of the guys actually managing teams today would go the other way.

    I'm not a baseball expert, and I could be way wrong on this, but I really think most would go with Gagne.

  8. #83
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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by glm47 View Post
    See post Post 36 - the post season stats alone would do it.

    Longevity reaches the point of diminishing returns - is Jamie Moyer better than Gibson or MAddux?

    They both averaged around 15 wins per season, MAddux had a slightly higher winning %. I don't have the stats on me at the minute but I'm pretty sure Gibson had better hits to innings pitched and strike outs to innings pitched ratios.

    I also want to go back and see what % of starts were complete games. Being able to finish a game is a good measure of a COMPLETE pitcher.
    Average season:

    Maddux: 32 starts, 16-10 record, 3.16 ERA, 5 CG, 1.6 SHO, 147 K's, 227.2 IP, 205 Hits, 43 walks, 248 baserunners allowed, 14% baserunners score

    Gibson: 32 starts, 16-11 record, 2.91 ERA, 17 CG, 3.7 SHO, 207 K's, 258.9 IP, 218 Hits, 89 walks, 307 baserunners allowed, 24% baserunners score

    Strikeouts per 9IP: Maddux, 6. Gibson, 7.
    Hits per 9IP: Maddux, 8. Gibson, 7.5

  9. #84
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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaPup View Post
    Average season:

    Maddux: 32 starts, 16-10 record, 3.16 ERA, 5 CG, 1.6 SHO, 147 K's, 227.2 IP, 205 Hits, 43 walks, 248 baserunners allowed, 14% baserunners score

    Gibson: 32 starts, 16-11 record, 2.91 ERA, 17 CG, 3.7 SHO, 207 K's, 258.9 IP, 218 Hits, 89 walks, 307 baserunners allowed, 24% baserunners score

    Strikeouts per 9IP: Maddux, 6. Gibson, 7.
    Hits per 9IP: Maddux, 8. Gibson, 7.5
    Postseason?

  10. #85
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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by glm47 View Post
    Postseason?
    I don't know the stats for playoffs, I'm sure Gibson has an advantage there. I think Maddux is something like 10-15 in the postseason. He may have a low ERA though, the Braves could never score runs in the playoffs.

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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaPup View Post
    I don't know the stats for playoffs, I'm sure Gibson has an advantage there. I think Maddux is something like 10-15 in the postseason. He may have a low ERA though, the Braves could never score runs in the playoffs.
    See post 36 for playoff stats.

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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    I don't know how it turned into me trying to prove Maddux was better than Gibson, because I only intended to prove Gibson wasn't the only reason for the lowering of the mound. If you read everything I posted, I think it's easy to see Gibson was not the reason for the rule change. That's the main point. As for who was better, I think Maddux accomplished more and had a more impressive career because of the statistics, his longevity, awards, and the era he did it in. That does not necessarily mean he was a better pitcher than Gibson. That's an argument statistics will never answer because of the different eras.

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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaPup View Post
    I don't know how it turned into me trying to prove Maddux was better than Gibson, because I only intended to prove Gibson wasn't the only reason for the lowering of the mound. If you read everything I posted, I think it's easy to see Gibson was not the reason for the rule change. That's the main point. As for who was better, I think Maddux accomplished more and had a more impressive career because of the statistics, his longevity, awards, and the era he did it in. That does not necessarily mean he was a better pitcher than Gibson. That's an argument statistics will never answer because of the different eras.
    Good debate - lets' move on.

    P.S. Gibson was much better!

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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaPup View Post
    To give you a visual:

    Strike zone in the 60's:
    Looking at this chart.... Tom Glavine would have picked him apart!!!

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    Re: Greg Maddux to Retire on Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaDawg View Post
    Darn it, now I've got to come up with someone else. Hmmm, - - - I give up.
    Hee Seop Choi

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