An atheist holiday

[hoppinmad]

I know you didn't ask me this one, but I wanted to reply (light-heartedly).

1. Everyone should stop and look both ways before crossing the street.
2. If I start hearing voices in my head, I'm going to check myself in somewhere.

Heh, heh, heh, good one too and I wasn't trying to leave you out of this...I have enjoyed your part in this very much.

Let's say then that you and your wife/kids were in the middle of the block just like Guiss, do you want to touch this one?.... or do you want to duck it? Your answer (not to me, but to yourself) may reveal something here.

Bear in mind, I was in the boat with you guys years ago and trust me, I'm not an "In your face" religious guy and never have been along the way. All I got in the deal ages ago was an event that kinda dough-popped me upside the head too.

[hoppinmad]

Nevermind. I'm a little slow. I see that your point is more of why should God require that you have faith in something you didn't witness. That is a question that is beyond the intelligence of man, IMO. Why does God favor faith over logic? I don't think we can answer that. Why do I believe it (have faith) and you don't believe (don't have faith)? Can't answer that. There is a mention of predestination in the Bible though. Maybe God calls those who have faith before they are born? Maybe there really is a "Lambs Book of Life" that has all believers names written in it... and it was written before the creation.

Good questions all TW, at least in my book. If you were God, you would already know that faith or belief by mortals is not really required about whether you exist or not....it's not going to change whether you really exist or don't exist. Guiss' beliefs don't change anything and mine don't either. While it may be so, I doubt that God favors faith over logic, but if indeed He's out there, he might care about how we treat each other. It kinda looks like he didn't want to step in there and stop Hitler, but it wouldn't surprise me he's glad somebody stepped up and did the dirty work for him.

One other thing, there's probably not a day that goes by that one personal event causes someone to lose their belief that there is a God out there too.

[Guisslapp]

Hey Guiss,


Glad you brought that up so lets try it another way: If you, your wife and your kids were strolling along the sidewalk downtown somewhere, then suddenly, a thought or voice says in your head.."you guys stop and watch the approaching car" (which is a block away), and puzzled, you tell the others "hang on everyone for a second", then 30 seconds later, you watch the approaching car lose control, roll over, cross a lane of traffic plus your sidewalk and then crash thru the storefront about 100 ft. ahead of where you all are standing...

Would that event cause you to ponder that maybe something else is going on around this place? Would you look back on it and try to determine whether that is in the event category or the miracle category, would you tell your wife what you thought you heard and whether she heard the warning too, or would you remain steadfast to your belief?

I would mention it to my wife, but I would question whether I saw some clue that would lead me to believe this driver did not have control (whether I noticed aggression, swerving, or other signs that there was potential danger).

[Guisslapp]

Good questions all TW, at least in my book. If you were God, you would already know that faith or belief by mortals is not really required about whether you exist or not....it's not going to change whether you really exist or don't exist. Guiss' beliefs don't change anything and mine don't either. While it may be so, I doubt that God favors faith over logic, but if indeed He's out there, he might care about how we treat each other. It kinda looks like he didn't want to step in there and stop Hitler, but it wouldn't surprise me he's glad somebody stepped up and did the dirty work for him.

One other thing, there's probably not a day that goes by that one personal event causes someone to lose their belief that there is a God out there too.

Yeah, for every "miracle" of good fortune, there are usually some bad things too. For example, if there were a car wreck where a person is saved by good fortune, but one person dies a painful death, someone might be inclined to believe divine intervention allowed the person to be saved. But if that is true, divine intervention (or the lack thereof) also allowed one person to suffer excrutiating pain prior to death. Is that a "good" god?

[hoppinmad]

I would mention it to my wife, but I would question whether I saw some clue that would lead me to believe this driver did not have control (whether I noticed aggression, swerving, or other signs that there was potential danger).

I'm unclear.... you would look at the car to see if anything looked abnormal but you wouldn't have them wait 40 seconds more for it to pass safely by, just in case?

Or...So, after the car careened into the store front and after you received the thought beforehand, would you be inclined to take another look at what you don't know that you don't know, or just consider it your lucky day, mention it to your wife and never give it another thought?

[hoppinmad]

Yeah, for every "miracle" of good fortune, there are usually some bad things too. For example, if there were a car wreck where a person is saved by good fortune, but one person dies a painful death, someone might be inclined to believe divine intervention allowed the person to be saved. But if that is true, divine intervention (or the lack thereof) also allowed one person to suffer excrutiating pain prior to death. Is that a "good" god?

I agree ... lots of dilemmas for everyone to sort out. I don't remember anyone telling me life was going to be easy....you probably don't remember anyone telling you that either.

[Guisslapp]

I'm unclear.... you would look at the car to see if anything looked abnormal but you wouldn't have them wait 40 seconds more for it to pass safely by, just in case?

Or...So, after the car careened into the store front and after you received the thought beforehand, would you be inclined to take another look at what you don't know that you don't know, or just consider it your lucky day, mention it to your wife and never give it another thought?

I would tell her that I had this thought, but I wouldn't assume it was a miracle. I would be more likely to assume that something about the way the driver was behaving tipped me off that caution was warranted.

[hoppinmad]

I would tell her that I had this thought, but I wouldn't assume it was a miracle. I would be more likely to assume that something about the way the driver was behaving tipped me off that caution was warranted.

Ok. Listen, just talking with your wife about it afterward tells me something and probably would tell you something.....and it didn't happen in a lab.

[Guisslapp]

Ok. Listen, just talking with your wife about it afterward tells me something and probably would tell you something.....and it didn't happen in a lab.

What does it tell you?

[hoppinmad]

You just saved 3 members of your family and then you told your wife you're not sure you can take all the credit. Not bad in my book.

[Dirtydawg]

You just saved 3 members of your family and then you told your wife you're not sure you can take all the credit. Not bad in my book.

You misunderstood him. He does take the credit. He says he would write it off that something about the way the guy was driving would probably have tipped him off that something was wrong, so he would have cautioned his family. Where he fails to adequately answer your question is what told him to look at a car that was a block away to see what it would do. I don't know of anyone who, while taking a stroll, is so precautious as to look that far ahead while they casually stroll down the avenue. In other words, normally you don't pay that much attention to those driving a block or so down the street while you are walking on the sidewalk unless you're wanting to cross to the other side.

[Dirtydawg]

Yeah, for every "miracle" of good fortune, there are usually some bad things too. For example, if there were a car wreck where a person is saved by good fortune, but one person dies a painful death, someone might be inclined to believe divine intervention allowed the person to be saved. But if that is true, divine intervention (or the lack thereof) also allowed one person to suffer excrutiating pain prior to death. Is that a "good" god?

Of course It's a good God. Once again you're ascribing your motives, actions and logic on a being and deciding what they should do and if it's a good action or a bad action. God has a reason for that person dying and it is a good reason whether we know it or not. Just because you don't know what it is doesn't mean it isn't. Let me put it this way. Let's say you live out in the country out of the city limits where it is legal to shoot a gun. I'm taking a casual Sunday drive to enjoy the pretty landscape and see you in your yard with your dog and a pistol. I see you point the pistol at the dog and shoot it in the head. I think, my goodness. What a sick bastard to just shoot what is a perfectly loyal and loving family pet. However, what I don't see is the tears in your eyes because you had to put down your family's loyal and loving pet because it was suffereing from some incurable disease that was going to cause it much more pain if allowed to live.

[hoppinmad]

Hey Dirtydawg, well, maybe I did...but it wouldn't be the first time. I myself used to be guilty of trying to find wiggle room just to play devil's advocate, he might have been doing the same.

Changing one's take on something is not an easy thing sometimes, and I've been there. Btw, I've enjoyed your posts around here.

[TYLERTECHSAS]

Yeah, for every "miracle" of good fortune, there are usually some bad things too. For example, if there were a car wreck where a person is saved by good fortune, but one person dies a painful death, someone might be inclined to believe divine intervention allowed the person to be saved. But if that is true, divine intervention (or the lack thereof) also allowed one person to suffer excrutiating pain prior to death. Is that a "good" god?

Here we go again with one of the oldest excuses ever to cop out on believe in a loving God or God period. Heaven knows we all experienced or are experiencing what are true tragedies and heartache in our lives. I know I have as well as members of my family. You might read the book "Why Bad Things Happen To Good People".
Other than what you might gleen from it, God did not intend for mankind to suffer these sort of tragedies and pain. But man introduced/brought sin into this world with the help of satan of course. Anyway, nuff said. That excuse gets so old to me. Sorry.

[TYLERTECHSAS]

I think there is a misunderstanding in what you think we are trying to say. Naturally, I agree that if a person chooses to believe in Christ out of fear of what may happen if he doesn't, then he's on the right path. However, it is not that fear that will determine if he attains eternal life in Heaven. It is his faith without having that fear. It is his faith, just because, as I call it. The man that comes to God through the fear of "just in case", will be shown the way so that he can develop that true faith provided he's willing to accept what he's shown regardless of how foolish it seems. The fear is what brings the man to the doorstep and knocks on the door, but it is his true faith without having to have that fear that opens the door for him.

We are on the same page.