What would it take for you personally to support a revolt or seccession?

[T_Won]

Nah. My boss doesn't make me work - it is just what it takes to get ahead (and hopefully stay employed in this economy). It is the Christians that want to prevent me from buying beer or a car on my day off that I have a problem with.

God rested on the Sabbath. It is good to rest. Buy your beer on Saturday night and kick back and relax on Sunday.

[T_Won]

What if there were laws banning church on Sunday?

"So? You can pray on saturday"

Completely ridiculous line of reasoning.

Religious fundamentalists are MUCH more likely to try to legislate their beliefs than non-fundamentalists. Taking religion out of government DOES NOT have ANY effect on individual religious freedom. However, legislating religious beliefs about gambling, drinking, etc DOES affect those who do not follow such strict religious beliefs.

Just admit the double standard and quit trying to justify it. It exists, it's there, it's pretty damn obvious.

I don't need a church to pray. With the direction we are headed to the left, my concern is imprisonment and perhaps a beheading. Historically, Communists have not been very kind to Christians.

[Guisslapp]

I don't need a church to pray. With the direction we are headed to the left, my concern is imprisonment and perhaps a beheading. Historically, Communists have not been very kind to Christians.

Christianity is all about communism and collectivism.

[bulldog_in_baton_rouge]

I disagree. Religious folks are more likely to take away other people' social freedom. When some city passes an ordinance saying you cannot attend a church on Sunday we can talk. Pious folks in many cities try to make others observe their holy day with blue laws.

I disagree. The ACLU has been much more effective at removing God from the government than the religous folks have been at establishing a theocracy. It is no contest.

Didn't mean to start this argument...just to clarify...I wasn't referring to a general trend in one way or the other via court orders and rallies, rather, an unexplained sudden change in mentality with the result being a complete clamp down on religious freedom globally...how's that for logic?

[T_Won]

Christianity is all about communism and collectivism.

With a righteous leader. Communists hate Christianity because they are jealous of God. They want to be our God. It fails because man is corrupt.

[daybreaker3]

I don't need a church to pray. With the direction we are headed to the left, my concern is imprisonment and perhaps a beheading. Historically, Communists have not been very kind to Christians.

You want to talk about HISTORY???

HISTORICALLY, how kind have Christians been to non-Christians???

Sorry, you lose.

[FishingBack]

One thing to think about regarding laws based on broad religious belief...is the possibility of a new religion taking over. European countries are seeing this start to rear it's ugly head with Islam. I recall a story about a German judge quoting a punishment based on the Koran.

[daybreaker3]

One thing to think about regarding laws based on broad religious belief...is the possibility of a new religion taking over. European countries are seeing this start to rear it's ugly head with Islam. I recall a story about a German judge quoting a punishment based on the Koran.

All the more reason to keep religion from being intertwined with government. Because as soon as it isnt the "right" religion legislating the morality, *then* all of a sudden they'll wish they had separated church and state.

[Guisslapp]

Tyler will surely make a post about the rapture on this thread.

[T_Won]

You want to talk about HISTORY???

HISTORICALLY, how kind have Christians been to non-Christians???

Sorry, you lose.

Really hard to find stats, but I would bet that non-Christian killings outnumber Christian killings a million to one.

[T_Won]

Yeah, and it may depend on how you define the Crusades. Being, whether it was in response to the aggressive expansion and loss of territory to a raging Islam, or whether it was the pope getting uppity and wanting to kill folks.

Regardless.... Christianity does not instruct it's disciples to kill. The Pope is not infallible, as evidenced by the Crusades. He was in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus.

I can't imagine any Christian thinking the Crusades were acts of Christendom. It gives people like Daybreaker ammunition from now until the end of time to point to how evil Christianity is, regardless of the fruits of Christianity before and after the Crusades.

[bad_man]

Who do you think passed the blue laws in all these places (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law) in the US? The muslims? Atheists?

Christian persecution is a pipe dream of evangelicals used to galvanize believers. It is not real. Removing references to "god" in government does not affect your Christian life. Period.

Religious freedom is a right, buying beer on Sunday is not. Constitutionally, there is no vote or law that can take religion away, but the blue laws are a vote of the majority. If the majority view changes, the law will as well.

Keeping God in government doesn't affect your secular RIGHTS, which are constitutionally guaranteed. There is no guarantee it won't affect your life, but your rights will still be there (again, of which buying beer is not one).

[FishingBack]

The Crusades were a response to a secular threat but disguised as a religious war.

Before the first Crusade, the powerful expansion of Islam threatened Europe as a whole. Islamic rule controlled a good chunk of spain, had spilled over from Turkey and were advancing from that direction, and had also started on the islands near Italy.

The Pope was threatened because they were on his doorstep and it was a three-front affair.

Now the "holy war" stuff was used as an excuse to get Germany, England, etc to lend a hand and get people fired up (which is probably the wrong-ness here).


Had it been a coalition of kings and there were no mention of "holy war" then I don't think we'd have a problem with the first crusade.

[Guisslapp]

Religious freedom is a right, buying beer on Sunday is not. Constitutionally, there is no vote or law that can take religion away, but the blue laws are a vote of the majority. If the majority view changes, the law will as well.

Keeping God in government doesn't affect your secular RIGHTS, which are constitutionally guaranteed. There is no guarantee it won't affect your life, but your rights will still be there (again, of which buying beer is not one).

Buying beer on a Sunday is not a Constitutional right, but it is a LIBERTY that some Christians would rather deny (and have denied) to others BECAUSE it offends their Christian sensitivities regarding how THEIR holy day is to be observed.

I don't know if a city were to pass an ordinance preventing the gathering for religious services that it would necessarily violate the first amendment. Congress cannot pass a law preventing you from gathering for such purposes, and I doubt the state could either (via the 14th Amendment), but I am not sure about a city.

[Guisslapp]

And my "right" to buy beer on Sunday is a "right", albeit it is a "moral, negative right" and not a legally-protected right. But I think that was what you were saying - you were being legalistic about the issue and not philosophical.