Confidence in Obama's Economic Plan Eroded

[FishingBack]

So, it's ok to bash America, as long as youre bashing it the right way.... It's ok for the government to be Big Brother as long as the right guy is monitoring... It's ok to spend money as long as youre spending it on the right things... Free speech zones are ok as long as youre limiting the speech of the right people... Torture is ok as long as the right person is doing the interrogating... Double standards are ok as long as the right side has them...

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. When the patriot act first went through I was naive and younger. Had I been wiser back then, I'd have tried to fight it.

I don't think it's ok to limit free speech or to have big brother monitoring us.

Torture? I don't know where that came from. I don't think I've even been quoted as saying we are torturing people.

It's NOT ok to spend money you don't have, unless you are in the middle of a WWII type event and our survival may depend directly on it.

It's ok to bash America - freedom to voice concern over the government was considered a fundamental right by our founders and I believe in it today.

[Abominable Gorilla]

Well how about the story of John Smith and the colony of Virginia? Is that a true one?

I think it should be clear from my history of posting that I'm not a fan of socialism. There are lots of good reasons to be against socialism. However, a fictional story regarding a classroom hypothetical isn't one of them. If I told the same story and had made up a different ending, would it have held any water for you?

Sorry. In a bad mood today. What I should have posted is: Just received this article via email this morning and thought it was appropriate. Not trying to pass it off as truth or fact. Obama's "economic plan" is self-explanatory and needs no input from me... just thought it was an easy-to-understand analogy of a socialist society.

Sorry for the earlier post.

I'm not against the posting of stories. I just don't think that story relates to the situation. I agree that socialism is a bad idea and I even agree that it has the affect in the story. I just don't agree that the story holds any value in a discussion regarding the merits of socialism and capitalism.

Coffee shops and low level eateries may pool tips. But even average chain restaurants with professional waitstaff do not pool tips. (Applebees, et al) Restaurants that pool tips may not show a decline in service, but I submit their level of service is hardly comparable to a restaurant with tip-dependent waitstaff. Maybe you are not aware that the minimum wage for waitstaff is not $7.25? It is $2.13. No self-respecting waitperson would take a job where their income was dependent upon the level of everyone else's work. It is a sales and service job.

I'm aware that Applebees does not pool tips. But, you're saying that I can't find one Applebees-type quality restaurant that pools tips? Again, I'm not saying they should, I'm saying some do. Also, let's be clear, I'm not supporting socialism. I'm only saying that fictional stories should not be used to support an argument against socialism.

And a self-respecting waitperson might do so if the tips were high enough or if it were a part time job. I might be inclined to say that no self-respecting person would make political decisions based on fictional stories because they would prefer actual information when available.

Here is the difference AG, you can fire a moocher/piggybacker at a restaurant, you cannot do it in society. So, your example is not the same. It can work in an environment where 1) nobody sees their job as any more important than the next guy's and 2) people are held accountable.

You're right, my example isn't the same. Is it your position that the other story is exactly the same as society? Or are you only bringing it up because you don't like socialism?

[dhussdawg]

You're right, my example isn't the same. Is it your position that the other story is exactly the same as society? Or are you only bringing it up because you don't like socialism?

I would not say it is exactly the same, but it is closer than yours. It is not necessarily that I dont like Socialism, it is that is just does not work with human nature. The larger the group, the less control and the greater the "piggyback" effect is. Not that the government should control people, but that is what it ultimately leads to. Obama on Socialized healthcare has put force in there to make sure that people and physicians do their part on preventive medicine. Okay, so what happens when people start getting around it? More controls put in place. Englad just did it by shutting down the private organ donor list because people were circumventing the system too much.

I have read your posts and I know you know this, and I understand you are playing devil's advocate, and I dont want you to feel like I am preaching to you.

[Abominable Gorilla]

I have read your posts and I know you know this, and I understand you are playing devil's advocate, and I dont want you to feel like I am preaching to you.

I don't mean to play devil's advocate at all. I'm in no way arguing for socialism. I only meant to imply that the fictional story doesn't work. An analogy is an acceptable form of persuasion, but that really only works when you don't force an outcome. My point was totally unrelated to the debate of whether socialism is acceptable.

[GonzoDawg]

I think it should be clear from my history of posting that I'm not a fan of socialism. There are lots of good reasons to be against socialism. However, a fictional story regarding a classroom hypothetical isn't one of them. If I told the same story and had made up a different ending, would it have held any water for you?



I'm not against the posting of stories. I just don't think that story relates to the situation. I agree that socialism is a bad idea and I even agree that it has the affect in the story. I just don't agree that the story holds any value in a discussion regarding the merits of socialism and capitalism.



I'm aware that Applebees does not pool tips. But, you're saying that I can't find one Applebees-type quality restaurant that pools tips? Again, I'm not saying they should, I'm saying some do. Also, let's be clear, I'm not supporting socialism. I'm only saying that fictional stories should not be used to support an argument against socialism.

And a self-respecting waitperson might do so if the tips were high enough or if it were a part time job. I might be inclined to say that no self-respecting person would make political decisions based on fictional stories because they would prefer actual information when available.



You're right, my example isn't the same. Is it your position that the other story is exactly the same as society? Or are you only bringing it up because you don't like socialism?

AG, I'm offering you a nonfictional story that makes the same point. I know you are not a socialist, no socialist would every dress up in a gorilla suit. That is too individualistic.

[nadB]

"Abraham Lincoln once said:

• You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
• You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
• You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
• You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
• You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
• You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence.
• You cannot help men permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves."

"This is PRECISELY the public policy being implemented today. It is exactly what he warned us not to do, specifically designed to engineer the collapse of income and economies which our PROGRESSIVE, aka Socialist, public servants will use as their excuse to seize power and private-sector money, all to SAVE you."

http://marketoracle.co.uk/Article12596.html

[TYLERTECHSAS]

Here we go!! Keep in mind the Dems/Libs can get anything passed they wish. Oh...and it has to be quick again! This should really be a new thread.

Geithner Asks Congress to Increase Federal Debt Limit...

Washington -- U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner asked Congress to increase the $12.1 trillion debt limit on Friday, saying it is "critically important" that they act in the next two months.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124970470294516541.html

[TYLERTECHSAS]

DANGER

[TYLERTECHSAS]

POLL: New Low for Obama Approval Index...

[TYLERTECHSAS]

Take your pick.

LINKS

POLITICO: So far, Obama's failing miserably...


UK think tank says US power fading...


PAPER: US credit shrinking at Great Depression rate...

[DawgyNWindow]

Take your pick.

LINKS

POLITICO: So far, Obama's failing miserably...


UK think tank says US power fading...


PAPER: US credit shrinking at Great Depression rate...

The second article is actually pro-Obama. It says that we should, and are, pretty much in the process of abdicating our role of World Superpower and now realize that we have to always work within a framework to get things done (even if they are not in our best interests).

And in this uncertain future where we all sing Kum Ba Yah and do the touchy feely thing, I wonder who is going to take our place and push THEIR best interests down OUR throat.

No American might will lead to chaos.

[stodgdog]

"Abraham Lincoln once said:

• You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
• You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
• You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
• You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
• You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
• You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence.
• You cannot help men permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves."

"This is PRECISELY the public policy being implemented today. It is exactly what he warned us not to do, specifically designed to engineer the collapse of income and economies which our PROGRESSIVE, aka Socialist, public servants will use as their excuse to seize power and private-sector money, all to SAVE you."

http://marketoracle.co.uk/Article12596.html

When universal truths are so succinctly stated it really makes you wonder how DB3 and Teatech can support Obama and his policies. Wonder if they would care to explain their positions on each of Mr. Lincoln's statements. More likely they would deny that Obama's policies are any different.

[dawgmom]

When universal truths are so succinctly stated it really makes you wonder how DB3 and Teatech can support Obama and his policies. Wonder if they would care to explain their positions on each of Mr. Lincoln's statements. More likely they would deny that Obama's policies are any different.

They would say that Lincoln was a right-wing extremist. :icon_wink:
How does anyone not get this? We are going in the wrong direction financially, ethically, and socially. Obama, Pelosi and Reid are paddling us up the proverbial creek as fast as they can.

[teatech]

They would say that Lincoln was a right-wing extremist. :icon_wink:
How does anyone not get this? We are going in the wrong direction financially, ethically, and socially. Obama, Pelosi and Reid are paddling us up the proverbial creek as fast as they can.

Yep, if only Bush was still in office..........

[TYLERTECHSAS]

This plan was a joke from the very beginning. Too rushed, not read, and really not needed. Another Pelosi/Reed/Obama blunder.

link
White House economist: Stimulus already losing steam?