Turning Buck_Dawg_Gold into a gun-toter

[FishingBack]

Originally Posted by buck_dawg_gold
So then vigilante justice should be the law... Why have cops...? We wont see eye to eye to eye on this but I am just not convinced that law abiding citizens should be allowed to carry guns in public places... Also I think you need way more than a couple of hours in a public safety course to be given a concealed weapons permit...

http://chl-texas.com/

Ok ...do you prefer to go by buck, or something like BDG?

I want to take this opportunity to educate you on concealed weapons permits, those who get them, and their affect on society as a whole.

First of all, concealed handgun owners cannot use them legally for vigilante justice. There must be a threat to a life for somebody to legally use a gun to defend themselves. If somebody snatches your wallet and takes off running, you WILL go to jail for murder if you whip out a gun and shoot them in the back.

These guns aren't carried to "take care of criminals the right way" or to "get revenge" or anything else. They are used to protect people and their families from violent criminals infringing on their rights.

The police cannot be everywhere and they have no legal duty to protect you from harm at all times. When seconds count, they are only minutes away. They will do a great job tracking down the offender and putting them in jail, in most cases. That doesn't bring somebody back to life though.

No concealed gun permit holders have the authority to pursue or arrest suspects. They cannot be used offensively.

[FishingBack]

Who gets concealed weapon permits?

Answer: Anybody interested in protecting themselves and those who can't protect themselves. This will normally be the man of the family, but many women decide to get a permit for their own protection. Firearms are the great equalizer. There's no other way an average woman could defend herself from three male attackers in their physical prime. Mace and pepper spray is useless on many criminals. You can only tase one person, and tasers are much more limited in their application.

Many concealed permit holders are older and not in prime physical condition. It's easy to be tough when you are 30 and have biceps like grapefruit. That same guy at 71 years old isn't so intimidating anymore, and can no longer repel attackers with physical force. Also, even athletes can't protect themselves from criminals with guns. A skinny 15 year old could easily bring you down with a gun no matter who you are.

Finally I want to cover the restrictions on the permits and who can get them.

In Louisiana, to get a permit, you can't have any of the following on your record:

1. Felony
2. Violent misdemeanor such as domestic violence or assault
3. DUI
4. Dishonorable discharge from the military
5. Committed for mental treatment, either voluntarily or involuntarily- requires a release by a doctor if there is any way you can get around it
6. Current restraining order (common during a divorce....lawyers file them just in case most of the time)
7. Health condition prohibitive to being able to handle a weapon (requires a release signed by a doctor)
8. Any drug related charge of any kind

They run a full FBI background check on you. They take all of your fingerprints and your photo. It is a very involved process administered by the Louisiana State Police.

The people who acquire them tend to be fine, upstanding citizens. They will pull your license if you no longer meet the requirements, such as beating your wife or getting a DUI. They will pull your license for a criminally negligent discharge of your weapon. You must renew it and go through the entire process every 4 years, including another approved training course.

In the Louisiana training course the instructors are licensed by the state, and are law enforcement many times.

They last most of the day, and require 36 shots at three distances to prove competancy. They observe to ensure that you safely handle your weapon, and safely load and unload your weapon. They teach you basic gun safety, child gun safety, basic shooting techniques, and basic tactics. They spend a lot of time going over legal issues such as when you can justifiably use your weapon in defense of your life.

In conclusion, only the most law abiding citizens can get them. They are the only realistic way for women and the elderly to protect their lives in a bad situation, and for men most of the time, as criminals conceal their weapons illegally.

Oh, and the minimum age is 21.

[FishingBack]

The affect of concealed handgun permits on society.

Concealed handgun holders have a much much much lower rate of murder than those without permits. There will always be a few that do decide to kill somebody, but they are very rare.....anomalies if you will. They just don't tend to illegally kill people.

Concealed hangun permit holders prevent thousands of crimes and save thousands of innocent lives each year. For the small handfull that do end up illegally killing innocent people, they are dwarfed by the thousands and thousands of innocent lives saved by their use. There is a huge positive net effect on society.

Permit holders go out of their way to avoid conflict, since an escalation of violence from an argument will result in them losing their permit. They are more polite and respectful. If more people were out there with weapons, you'd probably be less apt to violently provoke people.

The anti-gun crowd likes to make fun of thise statement but it is true - an armed society is a polite society. You don't get in fist fights and wrestling situations with a gun, as it may get taken away and used against you. (in addition to possibly losing your permit)

[buck_dawg_gold]

Originally Posted by buck_dawg_gold
So then vigilante justice should be the law... Why have cops...? We wont see eye to eye to eye on this but I am just not convinced that law abiding citizens should be allowed to carry guns in public places... Also I think you need way more than a couple of hours in a public safety course to be given a concealed weapons permit...

http://chl-texas.com/

Ok ...do you prefer to go by buck, or something like BDG?

I want to take this opportunity to educate you on concealed weapons permits, those who get them, and their affect on society as a whole.

First of all, concealed handgun owners cannot use them legally for vigilante justice. There must be a threat to a life for somebody to legally use a gun to defend themselves. If somebody snatches your wallet and takes off running, you WILL go to jail for murder if you whip out a gun and shoot them in the back.

These guns aren't carried to "take care of criminals the right way" or to "get revenge" or anything else. They are used to protect people and their families from violent criminals infringing on their rights.

The police cannot be everywhere and they have no legal duty to protect you from harm at all times. When seconds count, they are only minutes away. They will do a great job tracking down the offender and putting them in jail, in most cases. That doesn't bring somebody back to life though.

No concealed gun permit holders have the authority to pursue or arrest suspects. They cannot be used offensively.

I dont have a problem with guns I dont care what kind of gun you have but I am not a fan of concealed weapons... You stated that if you shoot someone for stealing your wallet in the back you will be arrested for murder... Well here in Houston Mr Joe Horn was cleared of wrong doing for that... "An autopsy report indicated that both men were shot in the back." http://www.khou.com/news/local/stori...d.d53dd22.html

You cannot prove without a shadow of a doubt that having a concealed guns save lives... You also cannot prove that concealed handguns lower crime rates. There are many variables that play into the lowering of crime rates... Example an increase to the police force, targeting of high crime areas by police etc etc...

[johnnylightnin]

You cannot prove without a shadow of a doubt that having a concealed guns save lives... You also cannot prove that concealed handguns lower crime rates.

Here you go (since you ignored it last time):

http://books.google.com/books?id=K6d...esult&resnum=4

[Cool Hand Clyde]

You cannot prove without a shadow of a doubt that having a concealed guns save lives....

But your chances of survival definitely increase. Ask this gun toter:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...fice-building/

[buck_dawg_gold]

Here you go (since you ignored it last time):

http://books.google.com/books?id=K6d...esult&resnum=4

Yes but you know as well as I know that there are many variables involved in the lowering of crime rates...

[Cool Hand Clyde]

I dont have a problem with guns I dont care what kind of gun you have but I am not a fan of concealed weapons... You stated that if you shoot someone for stealing your wallet in the back you will be arrested for murder... Well here in Houston Mr Joe Horn was cleared of wrong doing for that... "An autopsy report indicated that both men were shot in the back." http://www.khou.com/news/local/stori...d.d53dd22.html

some people need killin

[dhussdawg]

I dont have a problem with guns I dont care what kind of gun you have but I am not a fan of concealed weapons... You stated that if you shoot someone for stealing your wallet in the back you will be arrested for murder... Well here in Houston Mr Joe Horn was cleared of wrong doing for that... "An autopsy report indicated that both men were shot in the back." http://www.khou.com/news/local/stori...d.d53dd22.html

You cannot prove without a shadow of a doubt that having a concealed guns save lives... You also cannot prove that concealed handguns lower crime rates. There are many variables that play into the lowering of crime rates... Example an increase to the police force, targeting of high crime areas by police etc etc...

The onus is on you to prove that carrying concealed weapons is more dangerous than not. If you want to get rid of something, you have to prove why it needs to be done away with, not the other way around.

[FishingBack]

I dont have a problem with guns I dont care what kind of gun you have but I am not a fan of concealed weapons... You stated that if you shoot someone for stealing your wallet in the back you will be arrested for murder... Well here in Houston Mr Joe Horn was cleared of wrong doing for that... "An autopsy report indicated that both men were shot in the back." http://www.khou.com/news/local/stori...d.d53dd22.html

You cannot prove without a shadow of a doubt that having a concealed guns save lives... You also cannot prove that concealed handguns lower crime rates. There are many variables that play into the lowering of crime rates... Example an increase to the police force, targeting of high crime areas by police etc etc...

Joe Horn was not a concealing a handgun. He wasn't in public. He used a shotgun. He was charged with a crime by the DA I believe, and acquitted by a jury. In Texas it's legal to shoot people stealing your moveable property at night. That is the only state it is legal and it doesn't apply in any way to concealed handguns.

That is not applicable here.

You CAN prove without a shadow of a doubt that concealed guns save innocent lives. Why on earth would you say that?

You're missing the point.

It's not about lowering the crime rate. It's about protecting your life. You don't carry a gun to stop a purse-snatcher, you carry it to protect yourself from lethal harm.

[FishingBack]

Yes but you know as well as I know that there are many variables involved in the lowering of crime rates...

Yeah but you don't carry a gun to play cop - you carry it to prevent your own death.

[DONW]

some people need killin

Like the terrorist that killed the soldier at the navy-army recruiting office in LR.

[FishingBack]

I guess I'll just put the question to Buck directly.

Why do you have a problem with legal concealed weapon permits?

[Cool Hand Clyde]

Like the terrorist that killed the soldier at the navy-army recruiting office in LR.

Exactly, a terrorist with no carry permit

[buck_dawg_gold]

Joe Horn was not a concealing a handgun. He wasn't in public. He used a shotgun. He was charged with a crime by the DA I believe, and acquitted by a jury. In Texas it's legal to shoot people stealing your moveable property at night. That is the only state it is legal and it doesn't apply in any way to concealed handguns.

That is not applicable here.

You CAN prove without a shadow of a doubt that concealed guns save innocent lives. Why on earth would you say that?

You're missing the point.

It's not about lowering the crime rate. It's about protecting your life. You don't carry a gun to stop a purse-snatcher, you carry it to protect yourself from lethal harm.

It did not go to trial... And it was not even his property they were also unarmed.... If its not about lowering crime...? But it is about defending one's self from a crime....? How dont the two go hand and hand... So you are saying if there is no crime the there is no need to carry a weapon...? Leathal Harm is not a crime...? So explain how it is not about crime or crime rate...?