Allen HS Stadium

[Bigdog13]

Originally Posted by LABulldog

Help me understand something if I'm not getting your post. You say that you're not jealous of Southlake but you take a shot at them. You say that you have a better football program than Southlake but you take a shot at them. They are in a different division than you but you take a shot at them. Sounds like you have a problem with Southlake.

Do people only criticize things that they are jealous of? I don't have a dog in this fight (I went to school in Arkansas and my daughter won't be in high school for a long time since she is only 6 months old), but I don't think it's necessarily the best idea to have such huge high schools. Does that mean I have to be jealous of something?




I'm sure the coaches love having to pick and choose from a larger group of student athletes but that still doesn't guarantee that the team(s) will be winners. Hard work by the coaches and student athletes is what produces consistent winners, not student body size.

Then why do they have classifications to begin with? Of course in a given year (or even for a given stretch of years) a great coach or community support can help a smaller school "play up." But there is a reason that high school sports associations try to group schools by size.

Obviously this doesn't work as well at the top and the bottom, although I suppose you could argue that after a certain point (and before another one) it doesn't matter as much.

(Red text by Inudesu)


Good responses Inudesu. No you don't have to be jealous to criticize something. But when you specifically pick out a single entity and say something is wrong with it but then later use additional examples to back up your criticism, then, to me, you have a problem with that single entity or you would have made a broader argument originally. The entity I made the original comment about was Allen then I also broadened the arguement by bringing up Southlake.To be bothered by a single school in an adjoining town because you think it's too big tells me that you have an issue with that school, either athletically, scholastically or some other issue. If you have a problem with Mega-Schools, then say it, don't pick out one example particularly when every appearance is your example is very likely an opponent. You are making assumptions again. I didn't go to Keller HS, never played against Southlake or Keller and really don't care who wins when Keller plays Southlake. Keller is where I live now, not where I went to school.

I agree that these Mega-schools are not good for the students but it's not the students fault that the schools are these sizes. If anyone is to blame, it would seem to me that it's the school districts fault for being short sighted. The students and student athletes have to deal with the cards they are dealt. If parents move into a school zone with one high school, then that where their kids usually goes. Typically there aren't any alternatives, except for moving to another district, going to a private school (if available) or home schooling. Never blamed the student or student athletes.

If the school has a history of being athletically good (any sport but in this case football) then the student athlete will most likely be enthusiastic about attending that school. Again, it's not the new student's fault the school was good (or bad) before the student attended that particular school. If the school outgrows itself, then there are only a couple of options available. Either build additional schools (is there space available, is there money available, etc.) or expand the original school to handle the larger student population. Again, it's not the students fault in any of this. It's just the way things tend to happen.
In Southlakes case there is enough money to build 20 more schools. To give you an example: The Cowboys use their practice facilities. Jealous? No. Glad they have it. I am a free market capitalist who doesn't believe in wealth re-distibution. But if you don't spend it because you seek athletic success that is a different story. Wouldn't a better student/teacher ratio be the best thing for the kids.

Your dead on on your comments concerning classifications. They are there to have some way of providing "equal" competition between the schools. Yes a school of 5000 should be better (statistically) than a school of 3000 because of the larger selection of student athletes to pick from, but as you mentioned and from what I've seen personally, this isn't always the case. Smaller schools can and have regulary beaten the bigger schools. Do the bigger schools like it? No way! Some will then start pointing fingers in the direction of the smaller school and try to accuse them of some wrong doing because they think that the only way the "smaller" school won was due to some advantage (fair or unfair) that the smaller school had that the larger school didn't have (or didn't know about). This typically doesn't happen here as privates don't play publics.

If you don't like the rules, then work to get the rules changed. If a school has cheated or whatever to win games, then call them on it. Don't blame a school for winning that is playing within the rules that they are given just because they are bigger (or smaller). Either get better coaches, better facilities or pick you athletes better.

Again the school I played for, Trinity, has the best of coaches and athletes and like I said we have won 3 of the last 5 Texas 5A state championships which should prove to you even further that my gripe is legitimate not out of jealousy. Schools like Allen and the Plano schools are ridiculous. If you lived here and understood the culture of Southlake and the reasons for not having 2 schools and having 2 grades at the Sr High you would be able to speak much more intelligently on the situation rather then speculating and assuming. You will notice I still haven't commented on West Monroe. There is a reason for that. Like you and Southlake I don't live there or have first hand knowledge of the situation.

Check this out though and it will tell you a little about Trinity. It's a pretty interesting school: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgpAWG9cjzc

[TechDAG]

I personally like for small cities (under 30k or so) to have one HS. That way everybody has one school to support. Bond issues pass easier, no this race or that race school. I lived in Odessa TX for a while and it was sad to see the difference in Odessa High and Odessa Permian. (of course, Odessa was about 100k people.)

[TechsterDad]

Which is why we only have one high school. The city only wants to support one high school. It really gets behind them. The slogan for the football team 2 years ago was "One city, one school, one goal... A championship!" which they finally earned after many years of trying. Southlake Carroll has been our nemisis in the playoffs 3 times. We've never beaten them including losing to them this year in OT. It was a heart breaking loss. No jealously on my part though. Southlake earned those wins.

[TechsterDad]

By the way, don't be surprised if an Allen football player ends up at LA Tech one of the years. Allen usually has 3-5 players end up at D1 schools each year. Many end up at Arkansas, UT Austin and Texas A&M, but Tech Tech and some of the mid-majors have signed some of them too. Sonny Dykes definitely knows the Allen football program. He had recruited Matt Brown, our QB the past 3 years, to go to Arizona. When Sonny left for Tech, Matt signed with TCU.

[PawDawg]

Sounds like someone got beat in High School.

I did some research and in a city with a population of 38,082 (2000 Census), Keller, TX only has one high school (Keller High School) located in Keller. Southlake, TX has a population of 21,519 (2000 census) and it only has one high school (Carrol Sr. High School, 11 and 12th graders only). West Monroe, LA has a population of 13,250 (again 2000 census) with only one high school (West Monroe High) in West Monroe.

So what is so B.S. about this. You appear to be jealous of success. I can tell you that West Monroe was the door mat of it's district for over 30 years. Once we finally got a coach that could get the players and city to buy into the program, we finally started to win. By having one high school, one can argue that we have the pick of the crop in regards to players. Maybe so, at times we do, but we are not the largest school in the state but in the past 15 years, we've had as much if not more success than any other school in our classification. I think it's B.S. that some people just like to piss on other people's parades particularly when the parade is a celebration of hard work.

Maybe one day, there will be another high school in West Monroe but I don't see the need for it. If we were to get a population boom and were to grow to over 38,000 I would guess that a second, if not third school would be built. Until then, we'll be proud of our Rebels!

Please don't use the city of WM's population as part of your argument. That stat has nothing to do with the size of WMHS. The fact that they didn't build another high school when the last bond issue passed also had nothing to do with the winning ways of WM either, but those winning ways will certainly prohibit any serious talk of another high school to relieve some of the overpopulation at WMHS.

[DallasDog]

I think we've touched on this topic before. How do the people there feel about not building another high school? I'd guess the best reason not to is the same reason WM will never build another much needed high school facility.

Mad,

Sorry for the late response, got busy. The reasons for Allen's decision has been pretty well explained.

Here in Frisco (I work for the district), we chose to go the opposite route. We are currently at about 130,000 people. In 2003, we opened our second HS Centennial (I have worked there since the start and at our CTE campus), In August our 6th HS will officially open (already holding some classes to ease overcrowding).

All of our HS's are built to hold 1850 students in grades 9-12, with the exception of our CTE campus which operates a little differently. We have plans for 2 more HS's before Frisco hits saturation. All the schools are designed to play 4A ball. We will be having some additions to several HS campuses over the next year because of large incoming classes.

The issue for the Frisco residents has been giving the most kids an opportunity to play. I really see both sides to the argument (Allen ISD and Frisco). I have coached HS and club in LA and TX. I personally prefer the Frisco ISD approach, but that is just my preference. Not dogging on Allen one bit.

I have been on the bad end of the numbers game here in TX. I was at a school in Richardson that was 5A by 4 kids one year when the cut of was 1989 or so kids. The next closest schools numbers wise in our athletic district were Lake Highlands and Berkner which had anywhere from 500-800 more than we did. The top of our district were the Plano schools with 1000-2000 more kids and only half the grades we had. Allen was in that district but were really just kicking off the last large growth spurt.

I just think it comes down to personal preference. If (from a teachers stand point) the ISD will continue to build classrooms at the current location and hire teachers that keep the ratio around 20/25:1, I don't see a problem with it. That is Allen's way of doing it. In Frisco I have about 23 kids a class in Con Law and about 20 in Criminal Procedure and those numbers are just about perfect.

[mentechsters]

Mad,

Sorry for the late response, got busy. The reasons for Allen's decision has been pretty well explained.

Here in Frisco (I work for the district), we chose to go the opposite route. We are currently at about 130,000 people. In 2003, we opened our second HS Centennial (I have worked there since the start and at our CTE campus), In August our 6th HS will officially open (already holding some classes to ease overcrowding).

All of our HS's are built to hold 1850 students in grades 9-12, with the exception of our CTE campus which operates a little differently. We have plans for 2 more HS's before Frisco hits saturation. All the schools are designed to play 4A ball. We will be having some additions to several HS campuses over the next year because of large incoming classes.

The issue for the Frisco residents has been giving the most kids an opportunity to play. I really see both sides to the argument (Allen ISD and Frisco). I have coached HS and club in LA and TX. I personally prefer the Frisco ISD approach, but that is just my preference. Not dogging on Allen one bit.

I have been on the bad end of the numbers game here in TX. I was at a school in Richardson that was 5A by 4 kids one year when the cut of was 1989 or so kids. The next closest schools numbers wise in our athletic district were Lake Highlands and Berkner which had anywhere from 500-800 more than we did. The top of our district were the Plano schools with 1000-2000 more kids and only half the grades we had. Allen was in that district but were really just kicking off the last large growth spurt.

I just think it comes down to personal preference. If (from a teachers stand point) the ISD will continue to build classrooms at the current location and hire teachers that keep the ratio around 20/25:1, I don't see a problem with it. That is Allen's way of doing it. In Frisco I have about 23 kids a class in Con Law and about 20 in Criminal Procedure and those numbers are just about perfect.

That is a big problem here in Louisiana. Especially 5A. There is a wider gap in numbers in 5A alone than from class C to 4A. If you are a small 5A school, you may have 1100 students. You may be in a district with someone that has 2200! You won't see that wide of a difference between a B/C school and a 4A school. Doesn't really add up.

[LABulldog]

Please don't use the city of WM's population as part of your argument. That stat has nothing to do with the size of WMHS. The fact that they didn't build another high school when the last bond issue passed also had nothing to do with the winning ways of WM either, but those winning ways will certainly prohibit any serious talk of another high school to relieve some of the overpopulation at WMHS.

Someone please tell how the size of the city does not affect the size of the school. If you have a city of 40,000 with one high school and another city of 15,000 with one high school, wouldn't one think (at least initially) that the larger city would have more students in the high school than the smaller city. Most cities, as they grow, will realize that overcrowding will occur in their schools and then they have two options, either expand the existing schools or build new ones. And since most cities as they grow expand outward from a central core, new schools when built will be built out from the central core. Will the new schools be built "in" the city or outside of its city limits is dependent on the local school system. When someone from one city is saying that another city should build another high school because they think it is too big, it makes sense to me that an initial comparison of the size of the two cities would be the first thing to look at. And since you brought up WM in your initial statement, it makes sense to compare the size of the cities with the schools that are involved in the discussion. If you think that town A's single high school is too big and needs another school built but the city that you live in, town B which also has one high school, has almost twice the population of town A, doesn't it make since to compare the two cities. That is what I was doing.

Maddawg, where would you put this new school that you think WM needs? They had trouble finding property for the two middle schools built a few years back. Have you looked at the cost of building a new high school with all the appropriate ammenities needed? It's millions of $ and I don't think the school board has that type of cash laying around. The tax base of West Ouachita parish probably couldn't afford the extra money in the past bond issue. Maybe one day they will but it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

Maddawg, did you grow up in the Ouachita Parish system? I did, along with all my family and actually have a relative high in the chain of command of the school board so I have an inside edge on information that some don't ever see. I just don't understand why so many people have a dislike for West Monroe High. It's one of the best academically in the state and it's sports program is also one of the better schools in the state. As I've stated numerous times on BBB, we use to be one of the worst in the state athletically and were constantly the homecoming apponent for many a team but since we have had success, people come out of the woodwork to find a way to cut us down. I guess I'll just have to do a better job of living with all the negative remarks towards my hometown and high school.

[DallasDog]

That is a big problem here in Louisiana. Especially 5A. There is a wider gap in numbers in 5A alone than from class C to 4A. If you are a small 5A school, you may have 1100 students. You may be in a district with someone that has 2200! You won't see that wide of a difference between a B/C school and a 4A school. Doesn't really add up.

The cut-off number had risen every year for the last 10-15 until this year. It actually dropped a little which really screwed a few schools over. They do split the 5A here into large and small in the play-offs but during the normal run of your district schedule it doesn't matter.

There isn't a perfect solution though. It's one of those things that I think they do a pretty good job in a tough situation.

[Bigdog13]

Someone please tell how the size of the city does not affect the size of the school. If you have a city of 40,000 with one high school and another city of 15,000 with one high school, wouldn't one think (at least initially) that the larger city would have more students in the high school than the smaller city. Most cities, as they grow, will realize that overcrowding will occur in their schools and then they have two options, either expand the existing schools or build new ones. And since most cities as they grow expand outward from a central core, new schools when built will be built out from the central core. Will the new schools be built "in" the city or outside of its city limits is dependent on the local school system. When someone from one city is saying that another city should build another high school because they think it is too big, it makes sense to me that an initial comparison of the size of the two cities would be the first thing to look at. And since you brought up WM in your initial statement, it makes sense to compare the size of the cities with the schools that are involved in the discussion. If you think that town A's single high school is too big and needs another school built but the city that you live in, town B which also has one high school, has almost twice the population of town A, doesn't it make since to compare the two cities. That is what I was doing.

Maddawg, where would you put this new school that you think WM needs? They had trouble finding property for the two middle schools built a few years back. Have you looked at the cost of building a new high school with all the appropriate ammenities needed? It's millions of $ and I don't think the school board has that type of cash laying around. The tax base of West Ouachita parish probably couldn't afford the extra money in the past bond issue. Maybe one day they will but it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

Maddawg, did you grow up in the Ouachita Parish system? I did, along with all my family and actually have a relative high in the chain of command of the school board so I have an inside edge on information that some don't ever see. I just don't understand why so many people have a dislike for West Monroe High. It's one of the best academically in the state and it's sports program is also one of the better schools in the state. As I've stated numerous times on BBB, we use to be one of the worst in the state athletically and were constantly the homecoming apponent for many a team but since we have had success, people come out of the woodwork to find a way to cut us down. I guess I'll just have to do a better job of living with all the negative remarks towards my hometown and high school.

I can kind of answer the 1st question. In high growth areas like Frisco and Allen there tends to be a lot more younger families where other cities that are older might have the same population but far less students. As someone that was in the homebuilding business for years I saw newer areas with less population have more students than older more established areas with a higher population.

I guess what I am saying is from an athletic standpoint if you have enrollment figures why would you be worried about population. For Texas I think having a 6A would solve a lot of these issues. In La. I'm not sure because for me the private schools issue clouds everything. 99% of even the biggest of the privates in Texas would get annihilated by even the average 5A schools whereas in La. there are a lot of very, very good private schools. In the end I think the mission of the school should always take presidence and student/teacher ratio should be the most important thing considered.

[PawDawg]

Someone please tell how the size of the city does not affect the size of the school. If you have a city of 40,000 with one high school and another city of 15,000 with one high school, wouldn't one think (at least initially) that the larger city would have more students in the high school than the smaller city. Most cities, as they grow, will realize that overcrowding will occur in their schools and then they have two options, either expand the existing schools or build new ones. And since most cities as they grow expand outward from a central core, new schools when built will be built out from the central core. Will the new schools be built "in" the city or outside of its city limits is dependent on the local school system. When someone from one city is saying that another city should build another high school because they think it is too big, it makes sense to me that an initial comparison of the size of the two cities would be the first thing to look at. And since you brought up WM in your initial statement, it makes sense to compare the size of the cities with the schools that are involved in the discussion. If you think that town A's single high school is too big and needs another school built but the city that you live in, town B which also has one high school, has almost twice the population of town A, doesn't it make since to compare the two cities. That is what I was doing.

Maddawg, where would you put this new school that you think WM needs? They had trouble finding property for the two middle schools built a few years back. Have you looked at the cost of building a new high school with all the appropriate ammenities needed? It's millions of $ and I don't think the school board has that type of cash laying around. The tax base of West Ouachita parish probably couldn't afford the extra money in the past bond issue. Maybe one day they will but it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

Maddawg, did you grow up in the Ouachita Parish system? I did, along with all my family and actually have a relative high in the chain of command of the school board so I have an inside edge on information that some don't ever see. I just don't understand why so many people have a dislike for West Monroe High. It's one of the best academically in the state and it's sports program is also one of the better schools in the state. As I've stated numerous times on BBB, we use to be one of the worst in the state athletically and were constantly the homecoming apponent for many a team but since we have had success, people come out of the woodwork to find a way to cut us down. I guess I'll just have to do a better job of living with all the negative remarks towards my hometown and high school.

I need to clarify something first. I like the Ouachita school system. I grew up in Richland Parish and moved here because of the cost of private school there and knew about the quality of OPS. My wife teaches in the Ouachita system. I have two children at WM high now and they do a great job especially considering they have 2000 kids there.

I do think the parish school system would be better served with three high schools west of the river, but this debate has nothing to do with the size of the City of West Monroe since we are discussing parish schools.

My beef goes back to when they decided to stick West Ouachita down in the corner of the parish which was led to by a dangerous road. Absolutely idiotic move by the school board! Had they kept it in or near the Calhoun area, I believe much of the overpopulation at WMHS would be relieved.

I don't recall finding property being a problem when they built the middle schools. I do recall the cost being high, but everything in the needed areas was and remains expensive. That's a good problem for a growing community. There is plenty of available property remaining if this were ever to become an issue again. It might not be cheap, but it shouldn't be.

I realize I'm in the minority for thinking that we need another high school on the west side of the river and can accept the fact that it is unaffordable, but I will never believe that the reason for not looking into the feasibility of a third high school is anything other than winning football games. I think that's wrong.

[DallasDog]

Right now the only team sport championship that either Jesuit or Strake Jesuit has won (the only two private schools to be allowed into the UIL) is boys soccer and that was this year. To me seperating private and public makes a difference also.

[TechsterDad]

The cut-off number had risen every year for the last 10-15 until this year. It actually dropped a little which really screwed a few schools over. They do split the 5A here into large and small in the play-offs but during the normal run of your district schedule it doesn't matter.

There isn't a perfect solution though. It's one of those things that I think they do a pretty good job in a tough situation.

The strange thing is that the large and small school split in the playoffs does not guarantee you get into the one you logically would be in the way the UIL does it. In 2008, the year Allen won the 5A football championship, Allen was in the "large" school 5A group which makes sense because we are the 4th largest high school in the Texas. But last year (2009), Allen was in the small school 5A group because 2 of the other 3 schools making the playoffs from our district were larger (Plano East which is the largest high school in Texas and Plano Senior the 2nd largest) than us. There is no easy or best solution to this.

I absolutely agree with DallasDog that splitting a district into multiple high schools like Frisco (and McKinney too) has done does provide more opportunity for kids to be able to play varsity sports. That is the one downside for what we have done in Allen. (The 600 member marching band does not have that problem because they let everyone in it that wants to be even at the cost of not being as competitive in band contests. We may be big AND loud, but never win any of those competitions.)

While our 2nd and 3rd string team players get into a most of our games because our coaches do not believe in running up the score on teams, many of those same players would be starters on their teams if we had 1 or 2 more high schools. And some kids who can’t even make the Allen high school football team would as 2nd or 3rd string players if we had more high schools for them to try out for.

[DallasDog]

The problem you guys face is the numbers we have around here could force you into the small division (ala PESH and PSH), it wasn't much of a break for a team that has to play Allen but they did technically get the smaller school. lol

I don't think there is a way to swing it where there wouldn't be a school that ended up in a division were they didn't belong.

[RealityCheck]

Time to resurrect this thread....

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/commu...le-stadium.ece