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Thread: 2010 Fall Enrollment Increases

  1. #16
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    Re: 2010 Fall Enrollment Increases

    Quote Originally Posted by detltu View Post
    That is really good news. Tech really needs to improve its grad school and research.
    Quote Originally Posted by GermDawg View Post
    True, but higher grad school enrollment translates into higher number of Doctorates which directly affects our Tier rating.
    Neither of these statements is necessarily accurate, and in Tech's case are almost certainly NOT accurate.

    Increased graduate enrollment does not equal increased doctoral enrollment; it is more likely due to increases in graduate-level certificates and "diploma mills" for educators and other professionals looking for grad work to pad their resumes. Similarly, this kind of increase in grad students does nothing to increase our research.

    Now, more doc graduates does affect our tier rating, but grad enrollment is a poor marker for this.

    The thing that will have the biggest impact on our research and doc programs is MONEY, particularly endowments. Unfortunately, our administration tends to favor the cash-and-head-count flow of diploma-mill masters programs to the capital campaigns and other hard work required for top-notch doctoral research programs.

    (Disclosures: Just got my PhD from Tech this past August.)

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    Re: 2010 Fall Enrollment Increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian96 View Post
    Neither of these statements is necessarily accurate, and in Tech's case are almost certainly NOT accurate.

    Increased graduate enrollment does not equal increased doctoral enrollment; it is more likely due to increases in graduate-level certificates and "diploma mills" for educators and other professionals looking for grad work to pad their resumes. Similarly, this kind of increase in grad students does nothing to increase our research.

    Now, more doc graduates does affect our tier rating, but grad enrollment is a poor marker for this.

    The thing that will have the biggest impact on our research and doc programs is MONEY, particularly endowments. Unfortunately, our administration tends to favor the cash-and-head-count flow of diploma-mill masters programs to the capital campaigns and other hard work required for top-notch doctoral research programs.

    (Disclosures: Just got my PhD from Tech this past August.)
    You are absolutely correct about the administration; and all should know to whom all roads lead.

  3. #18
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    Re: 2010 Fall Enrollment Increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian96 View Post
    Neither of these statements is necessarily accurate, and in Tech's case are almost certainly NOT accurate.

    Increased graduate enrollment does not equal increased doctoral enrollment; it is more likely due to increases in graduate-level certificates and "diploma mills" for educators and other professionals looking for grad work to pad their resumes. Similarly, this kind of increase in grad students does nothing to increase our research.

    Now, more doc graduates does affect our tier rating, but grad enrollment is a poor marker for this.

    The thing that will have the biggest impact on our research and doc programs is MONEY, particularly endowments. Unfortunately, our administration tends to favor the cash-and-head-count flow of diploma-mill masters programs to the capital campaigns and other hard work required for top-notch doctoral research programs.

    (Disclosures: Just got my PhD from Tech this past August.)
    While I agree with you for the most part (i usually do), I have to disagree on a few key points.

    Increased grad enrollment will almost certainly have an affect on research and it is reasonable to assume that there is a slight bump in PhD students. We only graduate 30 per year so even 1 would be a significant increase.

    Also if we are ever going to increase our program offerings we will need to show the board of regents that there is interest in our programs (as in Masters students).

    The bottom line is that we need money to fund our programs though.

  4. #19
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    Re: 2010 Fall Enrollment Increases

    Quote Originally Posted by detltu View Post
    While I agree with you for the most part (i usually do), I have to disagree on a few key points.

    Increased grad enrollment will almost certainly have an affect on research and it is reasonable to assume that there is a slight bump in PhD students. We only graduate 30 per year so even 1 would be a significant increase.

    Also if we are ever going to increase our program offerings we will need to show the board of regents that there is interest in our programs (as in Masters students).

    The bottom line is that we need money to fund our programs though.
    I understand where you are coming from, but my post is not speculation, it is observation.

    The administration is very interested in continuing to increase the number of our doctoral programs, and I think that is a noble goal. The problem is that they want to do it on the cheap. For example, the I/O Psychology PhD program was started last year without any increase in program faculty, which had already been shorthanded in trying to run the master's program.

    Also, in Tech's case I can tell you based on observation that it is never safe to interpret an increase in grad students as representing an increase in doctoral students. Most universities--including Tech--have a few graduate-level programs that exist solely to increase their graduate enrollment numbers and tuition revenues. It is these programs at Tech which have accounted for most of the increase in graduate enrollment in recent years, while at the same time program faculty for doctoral programs are severely under-staffed. This lack of adequate staff, among other factors, makes it incredibly difficult for professors to devote adequate time to expanding research programs.

    At the same time, however, things like the Enterprise Campus do help to improve research at Tech, but we are still way behind where we could be if increasing perpetual gifts were a priority. Strong endowments are the bedrock of solid research, and Tech's endowments are pathetic.

  5. #20
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    Re: 2010 Fall Enrollment Increases

    At least in our case (a group of about ~8 PhD students), we are not funded from the University. We are funded from the outside via substantial grant work with DOD, DOE, and the NSF. Professor salary, student stiped, tuition, etc...its all externally funded.

    I am not sure Tech's PhD programs would survive if everything were funded solely through the university. There simply isn't an emphasis from the administration put on growing endowments there. These professors are strongly encouraged to, and basically have to, seek three-letter type funding.

    In the mythical world where I become school president tomorrow, my number one and two priorities are growing endowments and increasing the number of American graduate students, and everything else falls far, far below those two.

    Well, except for getting that f'n railroad bridge painted, but you get the idea.

  6. #21
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    Re: 2010 Fall Enrollment Increases

    Quote Originally Posted by detltu View Post
    it is reasonable to assume that there is a slight bump
    twss

  7. #22
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    Re: 2010 Fall Enrollment Increases

    Quote Originally Posted by CChandler View Post
    At least in our case (a group of about ~8 PhD students), we are not funded from the University. We are funded from the outside via substantial grant work with DOD, DOE, and the NSF. Professor salary, student stiped, tuition, etc...its all externally funded.

    I am not sure Tech's PhD programs would survive if everything were funded solely through the university. There simply isn't an emphasis from the administration put on growing endowments there. These professors are strongly encouraged to, and basically have to, seek three-letter type funding.

    In the mythical world where I become school president tomorrow, my number one and two priorities are growing endowments and increasing the number of American graduate students, and everything else falls far, far below those two.

    Well, except for getting that f'n railroad bridge painted, but you get the idea.

    That is the way it should be. Endowments should mainly come into play in supporting faculty and Fellowships for grad students.

    If you look at a comparison of Reasearch dollars to number of PhD's granted for other schools you can say pretty consistently that a University gets about $1 million dollars in research funding for every PhD granted. Tech gets about $500k for every PhD granted.

    In my opinion Tech needs to really focus on increasing research dollars masters students in engineering and science would seem to help that cause.

  8. #23
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    Re: 2010 Fall Enrollment Increases

    Quote Originally Posted by CChandler View Post
    I'm sitting in CAM 610 as I type this and of the 47 CAM students, seems like about 25 (including myself) plan on graduating this year, so that PhD number should shoot up some.
    so Prof. Dai is keeping pretty busy

  9. #24
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    Re: 2010 Fall Enrollment Increases

    [quote=Brian96;984950]The administration is very interested in continuing to increase the number of our doctoral programs, and I think that is a noble goal. The problem is that they want to do it on the cheap. quote]


    That's the nature of the beast, how often has Tech had to do something shoe-string just to get it started. It's not that they want to start that way it's that the state won't fund it until we have a good enrollment and the admin can go "Hey guys we've got 20 people in this quality PhD I/O Pysch program and would like to get more but ya'll aren't giving us the money." Look at Biomed Engineering it was in the old run down hospital for years until Reneau had enough data that the state would look stupid not to invest in the program.

    Tech has done more with less for decades and this is the main way it's been done, Reneau doesn't wait for the funds from the state, cause they'll never come if you don't already have a quality product.

  10. #25
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    Re: 2010 Fall Enrollment Increases

    [QUOTE=GermDawg;985130]
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian96 View Post
    The administration is very interested in continuing to increase the number of our doctoral programs, and I think that is a noble goal. The problem is that they want to do it on the cheap. quote]


    That's the nature of the beast, how often has Tech had to do something shoe-string just to get it started. It's not that they want to start that way it's that the state won't fund it until we have a good enrollment and the admin can go "Hey guys we've got 20 people in this quality PhD I/O Pysch program and would like to get more but ya'll aren't giving us the money." Look at Biomed Engineering it was in the old run down hospital for years until Reneau had enough data that the state would look stupid not to invest in the program.

    Tech has done more with less for decades and this is the main way it's been done, Reneau doesn't wait for the funds from the state, cause they'll never come if you don't already have a quality product.
    You're almost there, but still missing the point (and a few facts along the way).

    Tech doesn't do shoe-string to get something started, it does shoe-string as a matter of course.

    You are partially correct in stating that Reneau will proceed without waiting for state funding, but the reality is that he spends a lot of time trying to bleed pennies from Baton Rouge instead of pursuing the external funding that makes the academic world go round at world-class universities. Which is why both I and CC keep harping on the endowment issue.

    Endowments for graduate students and graduate faculty provide the foundation upon which the bigger external funding can be pursued.

    What is a great travesty is that in the College of Education, doctoral students carry the majority of the teaching load for the Psych department, yet the doc students still pay their own tuition and earn a meager stipend compared to regional peers like UNT, and even make about 1/3 less than nlulm Education doc students (who don't pay tuition).

    We are moving in the right direction, but we would be farther along the path if external funding had been the administration's priority from day one (or if they'd even pick up that mantle now).

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