Question for you Enginee-types

[JuBru]

Over the last few weeks, Europe and the US have had some rough winter weather. Lots of snow and such. My question is, as far as roadways and runways go, is it possible for them to be heated (built in, similar to a pool) and function without causing hydroplaning or anything else associated with hazardous ice and wet concrete/asphalt/cement/etc conditions? I know it's impossible to remove all hazards 100%. Just been thinking of why it's not a possibility, or if it is, to have clear roadways and runways. Since I'm not an engineer, was wondering if anyone here could say one way or the other.




the 'r' in engineer was there when I typed it, but it became another victim of my iPhones editing....

[hookdown]

Over the last few weeks, Europe and the US have had some rough winter weather. Lots of snow and such. My question is, as far as roadways and runways go, is it possible for them to be heated (built in, similar to a pool) and function without causing hydroplaning or anything else associated with hazardous ice and wet concrete/asphalt/cement/etc conditions? I know it's impossible to remove all hazards 100%. Just been thinking of why it's not a possibility, or if it is, to have clear roadways and runways. Since I'm not an engineer, was wondering if anyone here could say one way or the other.




the 'r' in engineer was there when I typed it, but it became another victim of my iPhones editing....

Not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination, but I have wondered the same thing. My idea is to allow solar panels along the road to power heaters to keep the roads a few degrees above freezing. Realizing that heating takes a lot of power, not sure if solar would do it.

[Bigdog13]

Not an engineer. But I wonder if it would cause premature cracking and heaving of the concrete on the runway.

[BRDawg81]

Solar panels would be a problem because of snow and ice build up on them and because the times they are needed are when it is cloudy and they don't work as well if at all. The energy expenditure to keep a 3 to 4 mile long runway de-iced would be tremendous along with the possible problems of spotty heating that could lead to ice patches which could be worst than a complete ice sheet. That said , it is one of those "it could be done but no one would want to pay for it" types of problems.

[RougeDawg]

We can design anything that you can afford.

[Guisslapp]

Sounds extremely expensive, particularly considering the size of the surface area of the road/runway and the latent heat requirements for melting snow/ice. Solar cells seem very inefficient since you are converting heat to electricity and then back to heat.

[splicer]

For as little time as it would be useful, that's a huge expense that' can't be re-purposed during warm weather.

[ddgravy]

We can design anything that you can afford.

Lots of heated driveways in Colorado that have water coils under them that are heated by boilers, but its very expensive. Lots of experience at 7000' runway at 7800' elevation in Co. Massive amount of area that would be cost prohibitive. Poly. glycol works just fine in connection with lots of snowplowing most of the time. There are times though when mother nature just overwhelms and you don't want to fly anyway:icon_wink:

[ddgravy]

Mag. chloride works well also.

[WWDog]

When I was stationed in Germany, they used what amounted to pig urine to melt the snow and ice. That along with snow removal equipment seemed to be adequate. Along with the expense for heating and pumping the fluid that would flow through the pipes in the runway, taxiway, and ramp; I would be concerned with the maintenance of the system. That would be a lot of pipe to keep functional.

[odysseus]

I'm an EE graduate student with no practical experience, but maybe you could have water pipes under the road connected to a large reservoir. They heat the water in the reservoir during the summer months. Then whenever temperatures get below freezing the warm water is pumped under the roads, preventing icing.

[splicer]

But imagine the costs to install all the piping under existing roads, and the pump stations, and heat stations, and then maintenance on something that is only a "major" problem once or twice a year. It's just not justifiable. If I was a taxpayer in that area, I'd be screaming about it.

People just need to understand that mother nature is sometimes an uncontrollable bitch.

[WWDog]

I thought this discussion was about snow on runways not roads. It would be a huge expense on the runway, taxiways, and the ramp not to mention doing it for roads.

[hookdown]

Some articles on the concept.

http://me222.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/solar-energy-used-to-keep-roads-heated-during-winter/

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9838676-54.html

http://actu.epfl.ch/news/winter-roads-sugared-salted-or-heated/

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Driving+Seat%3A+Heated+roads+the+way+ahead.-a0132611219


Or we could just do what the Russians do, put a jet fighter engine on the front a truck and blow it off that way...

[GermDawg]

Their is heat tracing, mainly electrical that can be installed, however with the extreme drop in temperatures even that can't keep up. To really have something that would be snow and ice proof in places like the northeast and Europe would require MAJOR bucks, and even then the heavy wear & tear from the expansion/contraction and vehicle/plane loads would make it not a fun for upkeep. Warm water pipes would not have enough heat-surface area or give. Steam maybe a good alternative, just risky as a steam leak would eat out the subsurface and create a big sink hole or could melt the asphalt.