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  1. #31
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris29 View Post
    OKC is kind of the forgotten team in this thread. With the offensive skills of Durant and Westbrook, and the way Harden has stepped up, they have as good a shot at the title as the other three teams.

    On a personal note, I will be happy with any team other than the Heat. Lebron's arrogance has left a bitter taste in my mouth. I hope he retires at an old age without a ring. And my dislike for the self-proclaimed King James is due to his cockiness and "the decision" last summer, not his actual decision to sign with the Heat.
    Its funny that people think of LeBron as arrogant. He (ok more so of Kevin Durant I'd say) is probably one of the least arrogant stars in the NBA. But whatever.

    Point of clarification before this goes any further. I think LeBron is the best player in the NBA. He, CP3, and Durant are probably my 3 favorite stars to follow. And I could careless about off the court stuff like "the decision" or the "King" label (which was given to him, he didn't make it up).
    Last edited by Juice752; 05-22-2011 at 09:18 PM.

  2. #32
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by theprofessor View Post
    Seriously? The Miami Heat are relying on guys that you've mentioned: Mike Bibby, James Jones and Mario Chalmers. These guys are deep bench guys on average NBA teams, not contributors on an NBA contender. The Heat are essentially a three-man team. They get very little contribution from the point (unless Wade or LeBron are running it) or from the center positions.

    As far as the Bulls' deficiencies, Keith Bogans is not an NBA starter. The Bulls are very weak at the two. Boozer has been so inconsistent, and you're not getting any offense from Noah or Gibson, outside of cleaning up on the offensive glass.

    Both of those teams do have MAJOR holes. They just have some of the best players in the world (Wade and James for the Heat, Rose for the Bulls) to help cover up some of those deficiencies. I actually think the Mavs are the most well-rounded team remaining in the playoffs, but that doesn't guarantee they'll win the title.
    Ok well lets lead to some mutual understanding here. I agree that point guard and center are relative weaknesses of the Heat. Now I think those areas as well as depth are overly emphasized areas on this team. Joel Anthony is really coming into his own. He is playing like Kendrick Perkins with a little less offensive prowess (funny isn't it).

    Bibby and Mario Chalmers combine into an under appreciated player on this team. Don't get me wrong. That is probably (maybe not probably) starting point guard left in the playoffs. But how important is that? The Lakers won the past 2 championships with Fisher who was past his prime after his first championship. They can hit big shots and Mario is a pretty good defender. That is really all they need.

    My question is with these 2 areas of concern and playing a team where all of these are their strength (Bulls have best point guard and low post rotation left in the playoffs) do the Heat answer your concerns with a series win? I'm also assuming you agree with Chuck that the Bulls have much more depth as well.

    As far as the Bulls I agree Bogans is a concern but he seems to step his game up when they need him. And I agree that I'd label the Mavs as the most well rounded team left but I don't think being well rounded is good enough to win this year for them.

  3. #33
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Juice752 View Post
    Its funny that people think of LeBron as arrogant. He (ok more so of Kevin Durant I'd say) is probably one of the least arrogant stars in the NBA. But whatever.

    Point of clarification before this goes any further. I think LeBron is the best player in the NBA. He, CP3, and Durant are probably my 3 favorite stars to follow. And I could careless about off the court stuff like "the decision" or the "King" label (which was given to him, he didn't make it up).
    I'll admit that the Heat are my least favorite -- or most hated -- team now because of LeBron James. LeBron has been my favorite basketball player since before most people knew who LeBron James was. I've been following his career VERY closely since he was a sophomore in high school. The Decision -- both the show, and his actual decision to leave Cleveland to be Wade's Robin -- completely changed the way I view LeBron. Where once I thought he could be the greatest player in the history of the NBA, I now understand that, while he could win several rings before he retires, it won't be because he was THE guy. Simply put, it changes the way I view him.

    All of that said, how can you say that LeBron isn't arrogant or selfish? On the court, no, he's not. He would much rather be a team guy and make the extra pass than take the clutch jumper. But off the court, the guy just reeks arrogance and selfishness. It's been hidden for years behind the scenes in Cleveland because they coddled him, but there's no question he was arrogant and selfish. Any player who answers every question with "for me" or "for myself" and refers to himself constantly in the third person is arrogant. Off the court, it's always been all about LeBron.
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  4. #34
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Juice752 View Post
    Where to begin...

    1- You say Heat shooters are below the level of Mav shooters. Well that depends on a matter of perspective. Let's compare regular season 3 point percentage.
    Bibby- 44% (4.4 attempts per game)
    James Jones 42.9% (3.9 attempts per game)
    Mike Miller 36.4% (2.9 attempts per game)
    Mario Chalmers 35.9% (3.3 attempts per game)
    Eddie House 38.9 % (3.1 attempts per game)

    Arguing Bibby, James Jones, and Mike Miller as not 3 of the premier shooters in the game is assinine. Mario Chalmers and Eddie House are very capable of holding their own.

    Peja 41.9% (4.1 attempts per game)
    Jason Kidd 34% (4.9 attempts per game)
    Jason Terry 36.2% (4.3 attempts per game)
    Stevenson 37.8% (3.5 attempts per game)
    JJ Barea 34.9% (2.3 attempts per game)

    Show me how Dallas is a better shooting team other than they are shooting more than Miami in the playoffs. You mean the Mavs are shooting better than the Heat when it counts?? Because if that's what you are saying then I am in complete agreement.

    2- Lack of depth. This is probably the biggest misnomer I've heard about the Heat this year. They've got a solid rotation of guys at all 5 positions. This is such a homer call I can't even argue with it. It's like arguing with someone that thinks 2+2=5. Don't construe the fact that the "Big 3" are taking over the scoring as a sign that no one else can score. Remember the Heat scrubs still waxxed the Toronto starters in the last game of the year. You mean the game Toronto tanked so they could get a better lottery pick? That game? Toronto only won about 20 games this year Juice. And also keep in mind that the Heat have been without their 4th best player most of the year.

    3- Toughness. Don't kid yourself. There is a vast difference between the style of play in the ECF and WCF. And I don't mean simply in the low post. I mean everyone is expending a lot of energy moving the ball anywhere. This isn't true at all. Completely off the chain dumb comment. Even the announcers of the game and the studio guys at TNT said there has been little to no ball movement this series and the offenses are stagnant and that has led to the low scoring as much as the defense has. Do you actually watch these games???? The Mavs ball movement has been exceptional and fast. Both Magic Johnson and Kobe have both said that is what killed the Lakers. There is tough defense being played but there is also some VERY bad offense being played as well. Don't confuse the two. This might actually be the West's best chance if the ECF goes 7 games as the winner will likely need some rest. No western series has been physical by eastern standards. Many people are making a false assumption that cheap shots by the Lakers shows how play is physical in West. Do you not see how wide open the offenses have been? Heat just held the Bulls to 10 points in the 4th quarter at Chicago. Talk to me when OKC or Dallas shows they can do that. No, Talk to me when the Bulls or Heat can sweep the 2 time defending champion Lakers and hold them under 100 every single game.

    3b- Center position. Maybe you've been asleep. I dunno. Joel Anthony and Haslem are currently playing great. They aren't playing great and never have. For Anthony and Haslem the level they are playing at is great. But in the context of the league they aren't playing great. They are exceeding their very low expectations. Haslem is a PF stuck at Center because the Heats real centers are so poor. If they were playing against a team with a traditional center like LA or Orlando, Haslem would be getting owned. That being said I think Haslem is a good guy to have on a team coming off the bench. Just don't over rate him. And I am glad the 6'9" Anthony reminds you of Perkins as Chandler is just killing him right now. Joel reminds me very much of Perkins and Haslem is his own animal. He's a game changer when he's healthy.

    3c- Bosh. Why do people think that a PF that can hit a mid range shot is soft? There is a huge difference in level of defense that Bosh and Dirk play. Don't forget what Bosh did to KG in a few games last series and how he has kept Boozer quiet this series.

    4- Dirk/Durant. You're kidding right? LeBron would cover Durant and Bosh would cover Dirk. The problem for most teams trying to guard Dirk is this. They are having to use smaller guys. Bosh is a 6'11 guy that can move well enough outside the paint to guard Dirk. The Heat actually stack up really well in guys with enough size and mobility. I think this is a realtive strength for them over either team. Not sure for the Bulls though if they are to win. I don't see any reason why Taj Gibson or Boozer wouldn't give Dirk fits either.
    That is the most clueless statement ever. Throughout his career Dirk has owned taller players. The MO on Dirk was to put a smaller guy on him, someone that can get under him and pressure him. That's why Stephen Jackson frustrated him in 06 when they upset the Mavs. You have obviously not watched him play much. It would be better for you to just admit that than make the assinine statements your are making now. Have you ever seen Garnett (a tall guy, good defender) try to guard Dirk?? This year he went for 25 at home against him and 29 in Boston against him. But it's not just this year, Dirk has had some of his best games against him. Amare try to guard Dirk? Duncan try to guard Dirk? Bowen was the guy from S.A. that could slow Dirk down. Dirk tore Duncan up. When the Lakers played them he tore up Pau, Odom, and Bynum in addition to shorter guys like Artest. The one guy you don't want on Dirk is Bosh. That would be hilarious and the Mavs would be praying for that matchup. He'd probably foul Bosh out. Now Lebron would have a shot at containing Dirk. From a purely defensive standpoint that would be the way to go and with 2 other scorers that Lebron can defer to it might be the way they actually do go.

    You also over rate the Eastern conference. The difference isn't as vast as you think. It is better than the West at the top. But EVERY year there are one or many times more teams that are under .500 that make the playoffs in the East while one team or more that is over .500 sits at home in the West.

  5. #35
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Juice752 View Post
    Obviously that statement is a bit of an exaggeration as play this physical is a mostly playoff thing in the East. But Dirk would stand no chance of making an NBA finals in East with his weak self.
    He made it in the West by defeating the defending NBA champs when the West was VASTLY better than the East so that statement doesn't hold ANY water.

    Also it's completely assinine, off the chain remarks like the one you just made about Dirk being weak that steal all your credibility in this arguement. I mean there could actually be some decent points that you might have but then you fight hard to prove that the Heat role players like Bibby and Chalmers are good but you call Dirk weak??

    Think for a second. There are only 4 players EVER in the ENTIRE HISTORY of the NBA to average 25 & 10 in the playoffs and Dirk is one of them. He is rubbing shoulders with players like Hakeem and Petit and Oscar Robertson here.

    Only 3 players EVER in the ENTIRE HISTORY of the NBA have shot over 50% from the field, 40% from the 3 and 90% from the line in a season. He's rubbing shoulders with Larry Bird here.

    Those are facts. Look them up.

    And here is the rub: He is doing this without another all-star to take the pressure off him. Teams center their entire game plans around stopping Dirk every single night and he still produces numbers like that.

    His work ethic is second to none. When the players were watching the Heat/Bulls game tonight Dirk was in OKC's arena shooting. For hours. Carlisle says he stays after practice every night doing this and that his work ethic rivals that of Larry Birds, which is the ultimate compliment as Bird was a freakish gym rat. (Carlisle played on the Celts with him so he should know)

    Weak is certainly not a word that ANYBODY that knows anything about the NBA uses to describe him.

  6. #36
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris29 View Post
    OKC is kind of the forgotten team in this thread. With the offensive skills of Durant and Westbrook, and the way Harden has stepped up, they have as good a shot at the title as the other three teams.

    On a personal note, I will be happy with any team other than the Heat. Lebron's arrogance has left a bitter taste in my mouth. I hope he retires at an old age without a ring. And my dislike for the self-proclaimed King James is due to his cockiness and "the decision" last summer, not his actual decision to sign with the Heat.
    OKC is definitely a force to be reckoned with. And Durant is a machine. When he is on, and he is usually on, he is unguardable. My problem with them is they have a VERY low basketball IQ and make dumb mistakes, often at crunch time. With some experience and a couple of free agent signings they will be very very tough. Heck, they are tough right now.

  7. #37
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by theprofessor View Post
    I'll admit that the Heat are my least favorite -- or most hated -- team now because of LeBron James. LeBron has been my favorite basketball player since before most people knew who LeBron James was. I've been following his career VERY closely since he was a sophomore in high school. The Decision -- both the show, and his actual decision to leave Cleveland to be Wade's Robin -- completely changed the way I view LeBron. Where once I thought he could be the greatest player in the history of the NBA, I now understand that, while he could win several rings before he retires, it won't be because he was THE guy. Simply put, it changes the way I view him.

    All of that said, how can you say that LeBron isn't arrogant or selfish? On the court, no, he's not. He would much rather be a team guy and make the extra pass than take the clutch jumper. But off the court, the guy just reeks arrogance and selfishness. It's been hidden for years behind the scenes in Cleveland because they coddled him, but there's no question he was arrogant and selfish. Any player who answers every question with "for me" or "for myself" and refers to himself constantly in the third person is arrogant. Off the court, it's always been all about LeBron.
    Good post I agree. Total team player on the court. Off the court he is very arrogant. Juice, your remark about the King nickname is hilarious considering that is what he chose for his name on Twitter. He might not have made it up but he is sure embracing the hell out of it. The talking in the 3rd person, the decision, and everything that led up to it was crap. My last point on that deal is a quote from Michael Jordan. "It never crossed my mind to play with other great players like Magic or Bird because honestly, my goal was to beat those guys." Lebron just doesn't have that attitude. It's just a different mindset. But having that mindset will make it to where Lebron will probably never be seriously considered the best ever by unbiased fans/experts.

    But I agree with Juice that's a different subject matter but if you weren't already a Lebron fan it sure does make it hard to cheer for the guy.

  8. #38
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdog13 View Post
    Good post I agree. Total team player on the court. Off the court he is very arrogant. Juice, your remark about the King nickname is hilarious considering that is what he chose for his name on Twitter. He might not have made it up but he is sure embracing the hell out of it. The talking in the 3rd person, the decision, and everything that led up to it was crap. My last point on that deal is a quote from Michael Jordan. "It never crossed my mind to play with other great players like Magic or Bird because honestly, my goal was to beat those guys." Lebron just doesn't have that attitude. It's just a different mindset. But having that mindset will make it to where Lebron will probably never be seriously considered the best ever by unbiased fans/experts.

    But I agree with Juice that's a different subject matter but if you weren't already a Lebron fan it sure does make it hard to cheer for the guy.
    I have a buddy who has worked in athletics and got a degree in sports management. He had a buddy who interned for the Cavs. His buddy said that Lebron introduced himself as the King when he first met him. Seriously?! The guy is stuck on himself. I cant say I wouldnt be if I was crowned one of the best players ever at 18.

    Anyway, I think Collison has done a pretty good job on Dirk the last two games. Collison is pretty big, the refs are letting him be very physical, he is smart, and he can give his all on D because they dont depend on his O. I think that last part is crucial in the playoffs. You always need a good bruiser/defender that is not the greatest scorer. You can put him on the other team's best scorer and let him expend energy on the defensive side of the court. Look at the Heat, anyone would think that Wade should be on Rose, but Spoelstra knows that Wade is much too important on the offensive side to make him deal with that. So, Rose bangs Bibby around and they let him get his.

  9. #39
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    Another article on a gigantic hole in the Bulls roster. And this writer is a HUGE Bulls homer.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nb...ael&id=6577394

    The Bulls really only have one guy who can get his own shot. Both Heat, Mavs and Thunder as well have more than one.

  10. #40
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Juice752 View Post
    Obviously that statement is a bit of an exaggeration as play this physical is a mostly playoff thing in the East. But Dirk would stand no chance of making an NBA finals in East with his weak self.

    I'm sorry, but are we talking about the same Eastern Conference that featured a 37-45 team in the playoffs? That conference?

    If you send a team to the playoffs that would have finished 6th out 5 teams in one Western division, I don't want to hear about how tough your conference is.

    They may have two of the better teams overall, but don't act like grinding through the Eastern playoffs was harder than the Western side when the TEAMS YOU ARE PLAYING are waaaaaay better overall in the West.

    "Physical" style or not, the teams in the West are better at winning basketball games(and therefore harder to beat).

  11. #41
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by dhussdawg View Post
    I have a buddy who has worked in athletics and got a degree in sports management. He had a buddy who interned for the Cavs. His buddy said that Lebron introduced himself as the King when he first met him. Seriously?! The guy is stuck on himself. I cant say I wouldnt be if I was crowned one of the best players ever at 18.

    Anyway, I think Collison has done a pretty good job on Dirk the last two games. Collison is pretty big, the refs are letting him be very physical, he is smart, and he can give his all on D because they dont depend on his O. I think that last part is crucial in the playoffs. You always need a good bruiser/defender that is not the greatest scorer. You can put him on the other team's best scorer and let him expend energy on the defensive side of the court. Look at the Heat, anyone would think that Wade should be on Rose, but Spoelstra knows that Wade is much too important on the offensive side to make him deal with that. So, Rose bangs Bibby around and they let him get his.

    Collison got away with a lot more in this last game compared with the others. He was able to be much more physical. It will be interesting to see if the refs let him get away with it tonight.

    I agree with what you are saying about not having your best scorer guard your opponents toughest guy. That's another reason why I think the Mavs can compete against the Heat/Bulls. It's because Chandler will guard Boozer/Bosh. Dirk will end up guarding Noah/Haslem. Which is fine. They'll score on Dirk but they aren't polished enough offensively to hurt the Mavs much. Dirk has improved quite a bit on defense. He did a great job on Pau Gasol. I think Marion can slow down Lebron a little bit. (no one can stop him) but I think Marion would give Deng fits and I think he could really make things tough on him. The key would be how often he needs to pull off Deng to help with Rose. I think Deshawn Stevenson can slow down Wade (same as Lebron, no one can stop him) I feel good about the Mavs ability to compete well in both matchups. The key to beating the Heat isn't stopping Lebron/Wade/Bosh. It's just keeping them from just going off. Then make the other people that I personally think Juice is overrating from beating you. Honestly if those guys were any good Miami could have won 70 games. Can you imagine the easy, open looks these guys get night in and night out with Bosh/Wade/Lebron on the floor??? To me that almost proves their weakness. They should be even more than an elite team. With those 3 they should be slicing through the league like a knife through butter. They don't though because their roster is filled with "has beens" like Bibby, Juwan Howard, Z, and some "never was" like Dampier. Not predicting a win but the Mavs have a lot more ability and talent on both sides of the ball than Juice would like to admit.

    Then again if Lebron had signed with the Mavs Juice would be telling us how awesome JJ Barea is right now.

  12. #42
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdog13 View Post
    Collison got away with a lot more in this last game compared with the others. He was able to be much more physical. It will be interesting to see if the refs let him get away with it tonight.

    I agree with what you are saying about not having your best scorer guard your opponents toughest guy. That's another reason why I think the Mavs can compete against the Heat/Bulls. It's because Chandler will guard Boozer/Bosh. Dirk will end up guarding Noah/Haslem. Which is fine. They'll score on Dirk but they aren't polished enough offensively to hurt the Mavs much. Dirk has improved quite a bit on defense. He did a great job on Pau Gasol. I think Marion can slow down Lebron a little bit. (no one can stop him) but I think Marion would give Deng fits and I think he could really make things tough on him. The key would be how often he needs to pull off Deng to help with Rose. I think Deshawn Stevenson can slow down Wade (same as Lebron, no one can stop him) I feel good about the Mavs ability to compete well in both matchups. The key to beating the Heat isn't stopping Lebron/Wade/Bosh. It's just keeping them from just going off. Then make the other people that I personally think Juice is overrating from beating you. Honestly if those guys were any good Miami could have won 70 games. Can you imagine the easy, open looks these guys get night in and night out with Bosh/Wade/Lebron on the floor??? To me that almost proves their weakness. They should be even more than an elite team. With those 3 they should be slicing through the league like a knife through butter. They don't though because their roster is filled with "has beens" like Bibby, Juwan Howard, Z, and some "never was" like Dampier. Not predicting a win but the Mavs have a lot more ability and talent on both sides of the ball than Juice would like to admit.

    Then again if Lebron had signed with the Mavs Juice would be telling us how awesome JJ Barea is right now.
    I agree, the Heat would rather play 3 on 5 on Offense in the playoffs rather than let their other guys shoot. Bibby was 2 for 4 last night, but he has struggled shooting before last night. Mike Miller has had a short leash and has been terrible when shooting. James Jones didnt even make it into the rotation last night, and he has been playing the best out of all of the other guys. Seriously, the guy didnt even touch the floor. Can you imagine the Mavs not letting Barea, Peja, or Terry play? I know Haslem is back and maybe it is more about Spoelstra's style, but one of these awesome spot up shooters that Juice talked about didnt even see the floor in Game 3 last night. That is my main point with this whole thing, the Mavs have 4 three point shooters on the floor at one time (Peja, Dirk, Kidd, and Terry), they are all hitting and willing to take the last second shot. The Heat have 2 mediocre three point shooters (Wade, Lebron) on the floor at any time plus one other guy that is either cold off the bench or currently struggling.

  13. #43
    Champ GatorDawg has a reputation beyond reputeGatorDawg has a reputation beyond reputeGatorDawg has a reputation beyond reputeGatorDawg has a reputation beyond reputeGatorDawg has a reputation beyond reputeGatorDawg has a reputation beyond reputeGatorDawg has a reputation beyond reputeGatorDawg has a reputation beyond reputeGatorDawg has a reputation beyond reputeGatorDawg has a reputation beyond reputeGatorDawg has a reputation beyond repute GatorDawg's Avatar
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by theprofessor View Post
    I'll admit that the Heat are my least favorite -- or most hated -- team now because of LeBron James. LeBron has been my favorite basketball player since before most people knew who LeBron James was. I've been following his career VERY closely since he was a sophomore in high school. The Decision -- both the show, and his actual decision to leave Cleveland to be Wade's Robin -- completely changed the way I view LeBron. Where once I thought he could be the greatest player in the history of the NBA, I now understand that, while he could win several rings before he retires, it won't be because he was THE guy. Simply put, it changes the way I view him.

    All of that said, how can you say that LeBron isn't arrogant or selfish? On the court, no, he's not. He would much rather be a team guy and make the extra pass than take the clutch jumper. But off the court, the guy just reeks arrogance and selfishness. It's been hidden for years behind the scenes in Cleveland because they coddled him, but there's no question he was arrogant and selfish. Any player who answers every question with "for me" or "for myself" and refers to himself constantly in the third person is arrogant. Off the court, it's always been all about LeBron.
    I'm not going to sit here and whole heartedly defend LeBron's character because quite frankly I don't care. But I will say if you have a problem with arrogance, what are you doing watching pro sports?

  14. #44
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    NBA still playing??

  15. #45
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    Re: NBA Playoffs

    Quote Originally Posted by inudesu View Post
    I'm sorry, but are we talking about the same Eastern Conference that featured a 37-45 team in the playoffs? That conference?

    If you send a team to the playoffs that would have finished 6th out 5 teams in one Western division, I don't want to hear about how tough your conference is.

    They may have two of the better teams overall, but don't act like grinding through the Eastern playoffs was harder than the Western side when the TEAMS YOU ARE PLAYING are waaaaaay better overall in the West.

    "Physical" style or not, the teams in the West are better at winning basketball games(and therefore harder to beat).
    The fact that a sub .500 playoff team in Indiana gave the Bulls such a hard time in the first round kind of shows you that this isn't a dominant team. Just got done listening to the guys on ESPN just thrash the Bulls for being such an easy team to defend. Again going after them for only having one guy that can really score. They showed how Boozer shrinks in the playoffs every year and how poor Dengs shooting %'s are. Again that's a big hole.

    The Heat are a great team but let's not pretend they are in the middle of some heavyweight titanic battle here like Bulls/Pistons of the 80's or Pistons/Celtics. They are playing an excellent defensive team but a team that is also VERY one dimensional on offense. And I have always loved the Bulls.

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