Turn Off the NFL

[johnnylightnin]

"he DID NOT say that it was to disrespect our nation"
You need to read his quote again. It is clear he does not want to show respect to our flag or country.
You can word smith it if you like and argue semantics but that is clear. At best you could say he's not proud of it but not ashamed of it either I guess. Is that what we are going to cling to?

From Eric Reid:

It baffles me that our protest is still being misconstrued as disrespectful to the country, flag and military personnel. We chose it because it’s exactly the opposite. It has always been my understanding that the brave men and women who fought and died for our country did so to ensure that we could live in a fair and free society, which includes the right to speak out in protest.

It should go without saying that I love my country and I’m proud to be an American. But, to quote James Baldwin, “exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually.”

People are equating pride with respect...that's not the same thing. Further, I think Dwayne is right...Kaepernick did not think about this thoroughly. He is also not a great spokesman or a mature guy. That said, THIS has grown into something much larger than him.

He's easy enough to write off. If you haven't, I'd encourage you to read what Reid wrote. Will it change your mind? Almost certainly not, but I do think it clearly conveys what Reid was thinking. And, I think that's helpful to consider.

[PawDawg]

Perhaps because it is a national issue and that is the only time during the game that we consider national issues. You're right, Kaepernick did say why he was doing it and he DID NOT say that it was to disrespect our nation.

Of course it's meant to draw attention to the issue, but that's not the same as disrespect. You're equating the two because it makes it easy to write off what their saying and refuse to interact with it.

Our black president addressed it early and often. It was front page and headlines well before Kapernick sat and when asked why he sat he said, ""I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

How can you say the original protest was anything other than hate for the nation? He accused cops of murder out of ignorance and arrogance. He defines what a true racist is.

[PawDawg]

Reid assumed it was murder. Just because his beliefs were veiled in his faith does not mean his thoughts were not racist.

[johnnylightnin]

How can you say the original protest was anything other than hate for the nation?

Because pride and love are not the same thing. You can love something that's flawed. Most importantly though, because he didn't say he hated the nation. You're equivocating...you're not alone, but hate for the nation does not logically follow from what he said.

[johnnylightnin]

Reid assumed it was murder. Just because his beliefs were veiled in his faith does not mean his thoughts were not racist.

Again, that's you adding to what he said. Was Sterling unarmed? That's all Reid claimed.

[inudesu]

He accused cops of murder out of ignorance and arrogance. He defines what a true racist is.

He accused some cops of murder.

He's upset because people are dead.

Others are upset because he's taking a knee at the "wrong" time (to draw attention to the dead people). Real (formerly) live humans who are now dead. And maybe some (maybe most) of them had it coming or it couldn't have been avoided or whatever. But the moral weight of "I'm concerned about people being killed" kind of out-weighs the side of "I'm concerned about (real or perceived) disrespect of our nation's symbol." And I totally get that for many, there are an awful lot of real (formerly) live humans who are now dead on the other side of that argument, too (but I'd submit that our amazing and brave armed forces fight for what our flag and anthem represent, not for the flag or anthem itself).

Now you can probably debate statistics and individual cases and due process and appropriate use of force and suicide by cop with him all day long. And maybe that addresses his concerns and maybe it doesn't. But I'm still amazed that someone indicates (calmly and peacefully) that he is concerned about injustice in our country and the response to that is so intense. I think patriotism is a wonderful thing. And symbols can be important. But man, this really became a huge thing and keeps ratcheting up. If nothing else, it's certainly helped our country exercise all those straw-man muscles we've worked so hard to develop (on both sides).

Again, I'm not sure this was effective. I'm not sure it was merited. Or that it's appropriate.

I am sure it's generally not been considered much past the knee jerk "my side or their side" level by people on either side of the discussion. And that it hasn't changed my NFL viewing habits. And that I think most people are sick of it and were not really missing the debate before it was brought back to the forefront of our national radar.

[Cool Hand Clyde]

I fear that those who proclaimed yesterday’s events a “win” for the president — after all, many of the players were booed for their stance, and in American politics you generally don’t want to be seen as taking sides against the flag — are missing the forest for the trees. If we lose respect for the First Amendment, then politics becomes purely about power. If we no longer fight to secure the same rights for others that we demand for ourselves, we become more tribal, and America becomes less exceptional.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451697/donald-trump-nfl-protests-why-they-knelt

70% of Americans are tired of the kapershit and just want to watch football.

[detltu]

If you measure matter by whether or not it offends someone, then you're right. Someone will ALWAYS be offended. If matter is defined as whether or not thinking people understand each other better afterwards, then it totally matters. Most folks here are highly educated and are incredibly considerate. WE are the people who should rise above the lowest common denominator. WE are the people who need to evaluate arguments instead of evaluating arguers. Our country will be stronger and better when people who are equipped to think more deeply than the tribal tone that our current climate displays choose to do so.

I will change my previous response to say that it Should matter. I still submit that it does not in the grand scheme of things. We can evaluate arguments until we are blue in the face, but we also need to recognize reality. For some people there is no suitable justification for kneeling/sitting for the nation anthem. Whether it is because they lost loved ones fighting to protect that flag or paid a significant price themselves defending it. We need to attempt to understand their side of it as well. Much like for some people there is no justification for using the N-word.

For the most part I have tried to refrain from passing judgement on the actual cause they are protesting besides to say I don't think they have a very unified vision of what that cause is or what they propose as a solution. I think that is a different discussion.

I will also say that the protest itself rises up from the very fact that intent is very difficult to prove. There have been plenty of cases where a black man was killed who clearly should not have been killed (and in some cases not as clearly). To me Philando Castile is one of the clear cases.

[dawg80]

As usual, Rush nailed it...

the NFL players say it is NOT about the flag or the anthem. If that is true, then stand for the anthem and choose another way to protest. It really is that simple.

[johnnylightnin]

We can evaluate arguments until we are blue in the face, but we also need to recognize reality.

I suppose my hope is that, in evaluating arguments, we will change reality.

[inudesu]

As usual, Rush nailed it...

the NFL players say it is NOT about the flag or the anthem. If that is true, then stand for the anthem and choose another way to protest. It really is that simple.

Isn't this what the Cowboys did?

[hambone29]

What are some examples of racism that need to be fixed? Which specific areas of concern are more than mostly isolated incidents and need fixing? There will always be isolated incidents involving good vs bad people, regardless of race. So after protesting and creating awareness, what needs to be fixed specifically? How are POC being oppressed? How do non-racist white people make life better for POC? Honest questions.

[Guisslapp]

Why do you think there are no black majority owners in the NFL?

[hambone29]

So the election of Trump had nothing to do with the other candidate(s)?
That implies if you don't vote democrat then you are racist.

And Idk. Why are there no black majority owners in the NFL?

[Guisslapp]

Why do only 2% of black NFL fans dislike Kap but nearly 30% of white NFL fans dislike him "a lot"?