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Thread: Rudy/Abortion

  1. #526
    Champ Spinoza has a brilliant futureSpinoza has a brilliant futureSpinoza has a brilliant futureSpinoza has a brilliant futureSpinoza has a brilliant futureSpinoza has a brilliant futureSpinoza has a brilliant futureSpinoza has a brilliant futureSpinoza has a brilliant futureSpinoza has a brilliant futureSpinoza has a brilliant future Spinoza's Avatar
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by randerizer View Post
    I'm pretty sure that this "lack of meaning" was all that people were left with when we were discussing the primacy of existence in the metaphysics thread. I'm pretty sure that JL, DHuss, etc., that were standing by this argument, are not the older people on their death bed.

    So despite what you would say, my experience is that this emotional attachment to hope in the face of mortality is true of all ages.

    WRONG......
    You have only the experience of youth!

    I am already very close to 90% DEAD...... Even I prefered to not continue drinking like a fish and smoking like a chimney.

    I KNOW my life's history......
    I need no youthful objectivist insecurity to light what little remains of my path toward ANY childish infinity.

    No offense intended...... :icon_wink:
    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said...... But I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

  2. #527
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    It is no different than proving a scientific principle to a scientist. But you cannot prove it to someone that doesn't recognize the validity of science. Same difference.
    Jordan Mills on choosing Tech:
    “It’s a great experience seeing them play. It was a good atmosphere. The fans stood up the whole game and never sat down. They have a great fan base.”

  3. #528
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinoza View Post
    I am already very close to 90% DEAD...... Even I prefered to not continue drinking like a fish and smoking like a chimney.
    I hope you don't plan on kicking the bucket on us anytime soon, Spinoza. The Pawlitics board would surely suffer, IMO.
    Jordan Mills on choosing Tech:
    “It’s a great experience seeing them play. It was a good atmosphere. The fans stood up the whole game and never sat down. They have a great fan base.”

  4. #529
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    It is no different than proving a scientific principle to a scientist. But you cannot prove it to someone that doesn't recognize the validity of science. Same difference.
    God invented science therefore he is not bound by its rules.

    BUT for the sake of arguement I would still say you can't prove it 100% beyond a shadow of doubt to anyone. It is impossible. If I am not mistaken you have admitted so in previous threads. Can you convince someone? Yes, I don't doubt that.

    I could probably find an MIT mathmatics prof that could prove to my 1st grader that 2+2=5. But he would still be wrong.

  5. #530
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    It is no different than proving a scientific principle to a scientist. But you cannot prove it to someone that doesn't recognize the validity of science. Same difference.
    Then why do so many prominent, respected scientists believe in God?

    What was that quote?? "If we are looking for an atheist for debate we better head to the philosophy dept. , the physics dept is of no use."

    (I didn't look this up so that might not be the exact words)

  6. #531
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdog13 View Post
    Then why do so many prominent, respected scientists believe in God?

    What was that quote?? "If we are looking for an atheist for debate we better head to the philosophy dept. , the physics dept is of no use."

    (I didn't look this up so that might not be the exact words)
    many prominent, respected scientists believe in global warming as well.

  7. #532
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdog13 View Post
    God invented science therefore he is not bound by its rules.

    BUT for the sake of arguement I would still say you can't prove it 100% beyond a shadow of doubt to anyone. It is impossible. If I am not mistaken you have admitted so in previous threads. Can you convince someone? Yes, I don't doubt that.

    I could probably find an MIT mathmatics prof that could prove to my 1st grader that 2+2=5. But he would still be wrong.
    Actually, my point was that in order to "prove something to someone" there has to be some agreement on the foundation of proof. Thus, someone that believes in scientific proof would be persuaded about a scientific proof using scientific evidence. Someone that does not accept science as a valid basis for truth would remain unconvinced. It doesn't matter what the subject of the proof is, whether it is god, the color of the sky, our very existence, etc.
    Jordan Mills on choosing Tech:
    “It’s a great experience seeing them play. It was a good atmosphere. The fans stood up the whole game and never sat down. They have a great fan base.”

  8. #533
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Actually, my point was that in order to "prove something to someone" there has to be some agreement on the foundation of proof. Thus, someone that believes in scientific proof would be persuaded about a scientific proof using scientific evidence. Someone that does not accept science as a valid basis for truth would remain unconvinced. It doesn't matter what the subject of the proof is, whether it is god, the color of the sky, our very existence, etc.
    OK then show me scientific proof that proves your claim 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God does not exist.

  9. #534
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by randerizer View Post
    many prominent, respected scientists believe in global warming as well.

    Hopefully you haven't opened up a can of worms with that one.

  10. #535
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdog13 View Post
    OK then show me scientific proof that proves your claim 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God does not exist.
    Sorry, my re-explanation did not make any more sense. I am not really trying to talk about science (although I could). I am really trying to make another general point about "proofs." I was not trying to advance the argument that science disproves the existence of a god. I was giving an analogy:

    Me proving that god does not exist to someone who places no cognitive value in arbitrary concepts = possible;
    Me proving that god does not exist to someone who DOES place cognitive value in arbitrary concepts = impossible.

    A scientist proving a scientific law based on scientific principles to another scientist = possible;
    A scientist proving a scientific law to someon who does not believe scientific principles are valid = impossible.

    Proving anything to a epistemological skeptic = impossible.

    Proving something TO SOMEONE ELSE requires you to start at some foundation where there is agreement. It doesn't mean you can't prove it, just that you cannot convince someone you are right.
    Jordan Mills on choosing Tech:
    “It’s a great experience seeing them play. It was a good atmosphere. The fans stood up the whole game and never sat down. They have a great fan base.”

  11. #536
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by randerizer View Post
    many prominent, respected scientists believe in global warming as well.
    So science is a great tool and very useful when backing up your already formed opinion on Christianity but not so good when it doesn't backup your already formed opinion re: global warming.

  12. #537
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Sorry, my re-explanation did not make any more sense. I am not really trying to talk about science (although I could). I am really trying to make another general point about "proofs." I was not trying to advance the argument that science disproves the existence of a god. I was giving an analogy:

    Me proving that god does not exist to someone who places no cognitive value in arbitrary concepts = possible;
    Me proving that god does not exist to someone who DOES place cognitive value in arbitrary concepts = impossible.

    A scientist proving a scientific law based on scientific principles to another scientist = possible;
    A scientist proving a scientific law to someon who does not believe scientific principles are valid = impossible.

    Proving anything to a epistemological skeptic = impossible.

    Proving something TO SOMEONE ELSE requires you to start at some foundation where there is agreement. It doesn't mean you can't prove it, just that you cannot convince someone you are right.

    I understand exactly what you are saying. I once again am telling you science has not disproved the existence of God. At best you can only say: At this point I have not been presented with evidence that leads me to believe there is a God. You don't even know if you will be presented evidence at a future date.

    And it doesn't matter who you are trying to prove it to. The evidence simply isn't there. It doesn't exist. If it did so many atheists that are rabidly anti-Christian (not placing you there Guss, you are a good guy) would have successfully used it to disprove that there is a God. They haven't because it doesn't exist.

  13. #538
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdog13 View Post
    So science is a great tool and very useful when backing up your already formed opinion on Christianity but not so good when it doesn't backup your already formed opinion re: global warming.
    well, science is useful in both cases. neither "opinion" is "preformed", though. i've flip-flipped on the issue of religion, and I was implicitly accepting of AGW arguments until a few months ago, after I started doing some research on it in response to the GW thread.

    What is consistent in my rationale is that a "scientific consensus," or a number of "well-respected scientists" is not sufficient to make me believe that something is true. I am easily persuaded by science done well, neither of which applies here.

  14. #539
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by randerizer View Post
    well, science is useful in both cases. neither "opinion" is "preformed", though. i've flip-flipped on the issue of religion, and I was implicitly accepting of AGW arguments until a few months ago, after I started doing some research on it in response to the GW thread.

    What is consistent in my rationale is that a "scientific consensus," or a number of "well-respected scientists" is not sufficient to make me believe that something is true. I am easily persuaded by science done well, neither of which applies here.
    So science done well has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that God doesn't exist? 100% accurate.

  15. #540
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    Re: Rudy/Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdog13 View Post
    So science done well has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that God doesn't exist? 100% accurate.
    I would say science + good ol' fashioned logic proves it beyond a REASONABLE doubt.
    Jordan Mills on choosing Tech:
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