U-La-La, the 1st Gay University

[Tech77]

How do you know? Seems that they were just as strong minded on some things that were wrong, as those they had right. Add to this that time and culture changes.

God doesn't issue a new Bible every year to change with "the times."

[RhythmDawg]

You can be educated in some topics, but not others. I will admit that I am not educated in engineering. When it comes to the social sciences, though, everyone thinks they are. And, it is not a lifestyle or choice.

You missed my point. Regarding social issues, two people can be equally educated about an issue and believe differently. You make it seem as though we are not educated at the same level as you regarding this lifestyle. And I'm calling it a lifestyle because it is a lifestyle...but that doesn't preclude it from being more or less that just a lifestyle. Depending on your "education," I concede that this...condition?...influences a lifestyle full of choices. So yeah, it really is when you open your mind a little.

I know socially several friends whom are gay, I work with patients and employees in healthcare whom are gay, and employ several LPCs, social workers, psychologists, and a few psychiatrists. I've built 3 hospital-based mental health programs, 2 comprehensive counseling programs, and have consulted with...I don't know how many. So now that I've laid out part of my resume (for demonstration purposes only)...I'm pretty well versed, but believe differently than you. And that's okay.

And I'll be happy to debate it with you all day long...

[champion110]

I'm not seeking to fault you Champ (well, yes I am, but not in a confrontational way), but you are being no more fair-minded than the other side. Both sides are responding only. If you are listening to the other side, then all you've determined is that the other side is living in the 50's, that they need to read the Bible in a different light, that they refuse to recognize that society changes, that they don't care about people (at least not as much as you), and that they look like dumb Southerners.

If you "listened" and heard accurately, then I say you're wasting time with Neanderthal's.

I admit my own bias, though. I am listening (or reading) the responses, as well. It is just as frustrating to me as it is on the other side of the issue.

[champion110]

God doesn't issue a new Bible every year to change with "the times."

It has been interpreted to another language that has words that were not even words when it was written. Add to that the many interpretations of it. Add to that the fact that Christians have always interpreted it to suit their needs at the time. No one here follows it word for word. You would be in jail, if you did. To me, the Bible is God's word, but many interpret it differently. I use it as a guide in my prayers - not as a instruction book of what to do each day. That may be where we differ. I don't see how anyone can dismiss the basic language translation of it, though. I can see how they can interpret it differently.

Throughout history, Christians have changed their views on what certain things mean in the Bible.

[champion110]

You missed my point. Regarding social issues, two people can be equally educated about an issue and believe differently. You make it seem as though we are not educated at the same level as you regarding this lifestyle. And I'm calling it a lifestyle because it is a lifestyle...but that doesn't preclude it from being more or less that just a lifestyle. Depending on your "education," I concede that this...condition?...influences a lifestyle full of choices. So yeah, it really is when you open your mind a little.

I know socially several friends whom are gay, I work with patients and employees in healthcare whom are gay, and employ several LPCs, social workers, psychologists, and a few psychiatrists. I've built 3 hospital-based mental health programs, 2 comprehensive counseling programs, and have consulted with...I don't know how many. So now that I've laid out part of my resume (for demonstration purposes only)...I'm pretty well versed, but believe differently than you. And that's okay.

And I'll be happy to debate it with you all day long...

I agree with the bolded and you stated it more eloquently than I did. That is the crux of the issue on this, though. Also, I am well versed, and that is okay, as well. Many on here are not and refuse to read any literature or experience (getting to know others different than themselves), though. Those are the ones I am talking about. It is an endless debate, though. There are two points of view. LFR was right earlier in that until science finds the reason that people are Gay, the debate will not end. Even then, I think that many will still take the other point of view from science.

As for "choice". Yes, one can choose to live a celebate or "fake" life. I have seen horrible reprecusions of this in my work. I imagine you have too, if you work in this field. It is like asking you to live life celbate or as a Homosexual. It isn't going to work and will catch up with you psychologically. To love and be loved is a basic human need.

[johnnylightnin]

It has been interpreted to another language that has words that were not even words when it was written. Add to that the many interpretations of it. Add to that the fact that Christians have always interpreted it to suit their needs at the time. No one here follows it word for word. You would be in jail, if you did. To me, the Bible is God's word, but many interpret it differently. I use it as a guide in my prayers - not as a instruction book of what to do each day. That may be where we differ. I don't see how anyone can dismiss the basic language translation of it, though. I can see how they can interpret it differently.

Throughout history, Christians have changed their views on what certain things mean in the Bible.

There are some things in the text that are very clearly laid out. You're not talking about "interpretation" per se, but about a stance toward the Scripture.

[RhythmDawg]

It has been interpreted to another language that has words that were not even words when it was written. Add to that the many interpretations of it. Add to that the fact that Christians have always interpreted it to suit their needs at the time. No one here follows it word for word. You would be in jail, if you did. To me, the Bible is God's word, but many interpret it differently. I use it as a guide in my prayers - not as a instruction book of what to do each day. That may be where we differ. I don't see how anyone can dismiss the basic language translation of it, though. I can see how they can interpret it differently.

Throughout history, Christians have changed their views on what certain things mean in the Bible.

I think your quote... "You can be educated in some topics, but not others. I will admit that I am not educated in engineering. When it comes to the social sciences, though, everyone thinks they are."

...can be applied to your comment regarding literal biblical meaning, translation, and interpretation from one person to the next. Even a basic understanding of the Bible and Christianity lends itself automatically to not following it literally word for word, as Christ's new covenant made the old testament covenant no longer necessary. But it is still important that we understand the first to fully comprehend the latter, even though I don't make sacrifices at the tent of meeting and go outside to pick up mana everyday. It's not following it word for word that matters, but believing that word for word it is true and unfaltering.

[champion110]

I think your quote... "You can be educated in some topics, but not others. I will admit that I am not educated in engineering. When it comes to the social sciences, though, everyone thinks they are."

...can be applied to your comment regarding literal biblical meaning, translation, and interpretation from one person to the next. Even a basic understanding of the Bible and Christianity lends itself automatically to not following it literally word for word, as Christ's new covenant made the old testament covenant no longer necessary. But it is still important that we understand the first to fully comprehend the latter, even though I don't make sacrifices at the tent of meeting and go outside to pick up mana everyday. It's not following it word for word that matters, but believing that word for word it is true and unfaltering.

We agree, actually, up until the end. Don't you see that "believing that word for word it is true and unfaltering" is difficult when people see the words differently? I think I stated it earlier in this thread, but there was not a word for Homosexuality when the Bible was written. The King James version of the Bible is different than the Hebrew version. In every context of the Bible that I can think of off hand right now that had any relation to Homosexuality, the reference was of promiscuity - Sodom.... Those passages in OUR version of the Bible are relating to promiscuity, not being in a loving relationship.

I agree that promiscuity (straight or gay) is sinful. Can't say that I have not been sinful, but that is my understanding of it.

I think we all can agree that through prayer is how we interpret what the Bible states. Our culture has interpreted it one way, though, and we follow that blindly at times, instead of questioning our Church or religeous leaders.

Guislap is Athiest, so none of these arguments that I am making represent him. I do respect his point of view, though. I am stating things from a Christian's point of view. It is just different than yours. That is why we have 100's of denominations of Christian Churches. They split over interpretation. I don't know who is right in certain cases, so I depend on my guidance from God. It seems that Episcapalians (I know that is spelled wrong) have split due to this very topic that we are discussing. There will be more splits in the future. This is nothing new and it is all due to how we interpret the Bible.

I apprciate your point of view and any that differ from mine. I just don't believe in forcing it on others. Also, when discussing a group of people that ARE discriminated against (as shown in this thread, even), I tend to be more passionate. I will end it there. This could go on forever. I just hope that we end it with a mutual respect of our difference of opinion.

[TYLERTECHSAS]

Our parents and grandparents had a few things wrong in the '50s, but they had a whole bunch of stuff DEAD ON RIGHT, in accordance with the teachings of The Bible.

FWIW, I agree 100%

[TYLERTECHSAS]

How do you know? Seems that they were just as strong minded on some things that were wrong, as those they had right. Add to this that time and culture changes.

And prophetically these culture changes will get worse and more anti-God and AntiChrist like in the end days ("like in the days of Noah"). So why did you bring it up again? I would have let this dog lay. You can't just up and change the word of God nor the meaning to fit one's own wishes and desires. His word is pretty black and white in the O and N Test.

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change;

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

[RhythmDawg]

Don't you see that "believing that word for word it is true and unfaltering" is difficult when people see the words differently?
Of course I do, and I agree, but that doesn't negate the point at all.

I think I stated it earlier in this thread, but there was not a word for Homosexuality when the Bible was written. The King James version of the Bible is different than the Hebrew version. In every context of the Bible that I can think of off hand right now that had any relation to Homosexuality, the reference was of promiscuity - Sodom.... Those passages in OUR version of the Bible are relating to promiscuity, not being in a loving relationship.

1 Timothy 1:10. Additionally, there are multiple references that clearly describe the act without terming it. And those certainly are not just related to general promiscuity, but do describe homosexual acts.


I think we all can agree that through prayer is how we interpret what the Bible states. Our culture has interpreted it one way, though, and we follow that blindly at times, instead of questioning our Church or religeous leaders.

I think you may be off on the methods and motives of church leaders...though certainly some, or even many, are certainly subjects of your comment above.

Guislap is Athiest, so none of these arguments that I am making represent him. I do respect his point of view, though. I am stating things from a Christian's point of view. It is just different than yours. That is why we have 100's of denominations of Christian Churches. They split over interpretation. I don't know who is right in certain cases, so I depend on my guidance from God. It seems that Episcapalians (I know that is spelled wrong) have split due to this very topic that we are discussing. There will be more splits in the future. This is nothing new and it is all due to how we interpret the Bible.

Agreed.

I apprciate your point of view and any that differ from mine. I just don't believe in forcing it on others. Also, when discussing a group of people that ARE discriminated against (as shown in this thread, even), I tend to be more passionate. I will end it there. This could go on forever. I just hope that we end it with a mutual respect of our difference of opinion.

Once again, I agree. But there is a difference between providing education, support...whatever...versus promoting it, or promoting tolerance of it. Promoting tolerance or acceptance of it to individuals or groups is no different than promoting intolerance of it. In the spirit of why this thread was started, my problem is that this curriculum was advertised and is being coordinated in such a way that one of the purposes is the promotion of tolerance and acceptance. People tell me I should tolerate it, accept it, and just be ok that people are coordinating an educational curriculum while stating they have an agenda for promoting awareness, tolerance, acceptance, and whatever else? No, i have every right in the world, under God, and under the laws of this country, to be as intolerant as I choose...and have every right to feel good about it if that conclusion is in line with my beliefs, morals, convictions, and education on the subject. I don't have to like it, and I don't have to be ok that others are "pushing" it. But if you have a different opinion, that's cool and I respect it.

And by the way, every group of people, regardless of race, age, sexual orientation, creed, religion, nationality, color, and every other distinguishing factor we can make up, is discriminated against. You could have three PhDs, and a law degree and I'll hire a CNA whom dropped out of high school and has a certificate from Votech for $7.50/hr over you to provide low level patient care, regardless of how badly you want the job...a form of discrimination if you want to get technical.

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[champion110]

And prophetically these culture changes will get worse and more anti-God and AntiChrist like in the end days ("like in the days of Noah"). So why did you bring it up again? I would have let this dog lay. You can't just up and change the word of God nor the meaning to fit one's own wishes and desires. His word is pretty black and white in the O and N Test.

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change;

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

No one is changing the words (except they were changed by the translators of it)......... My point was that interpretations change. Horrible things were done in the past by Christians all because of the way they INTERPRETED the Bible. As culture changes, we change. I could bring up the whole segregation issue again. That is a perfect example of what I am talking about. There are many more examples thoughout history that as times have changed, we have realized they were wrong. Those people thought they were right on every count too. Just like the example above of our Grandparents getting some things wrong. Well, you are not immune to that either.

[champion110]

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I can't reply to all that right now. How do you feel about the King James version of the Bible. Do you take it word for word? Even if there were no words for certain things in the Hebrew language? How about the "Living Bible". Do you not see the interpretation differences in comparing those two Bibles? Why do we have different denominations of Christians? Are the Catholics wrong in their belief of the Bible vs. Baptist vs. Methodist vs. etc..... Those were all splits in the Church because of belief differences as time moved forward.

My Christianity is between me and God, so I really hate keeping this going. Just be careful with any of our interpretations, because they can cause a LOT of harm in many cases. I am not excluding myself in this. However, at the rate of Gay teen suicide, I think preaching that they should change (which is ABSOLUTELY shown to be impossible) is harmful. I am not going to knock your beliefs, though. I may disagree, but I do so respectfully to all of you.

It is funny that the most accepting person on this thread is Guislapp (an Athiest).

[LookingForResults]

I can't reply to all that right now. How do you feel about the King James version of the Bible. Do you take it word for word? Even if there were no words for certain things in the Hebrew language? How about the "Living Bible". Do you not see the interpretation differences in comparing those two Bibles? Why do we have different denominations of Christians? Are the Catholics wrong in their belief of the Bible vs. Baptist vs. Methodist vs. etc..... Those were all splits in the Church because of belief differences as time moved forward.

My Christianity is between me and God, so I really hate keeping this going. Just be careful with any of our interpretations, because they can cause a LOT of harm in many cases. I am not excluding myself in this. However, at the rate of Gay teen suicide, I think preaching that they should change (which is ABSOLUTELY shown to be impossible) is harmful. I am not going to knock your beliefs, though. I may disagree, but I do so respectfully to all of you.

It is funny that the most accepting person on this thread is Guislapp (an Athiest).

Guislapp is not accepting or unaccepting. In keeping with his belief, Guislapp has said more than once that his interest is in himself. He only interjects here when he senses an opportunity to besmirch the religious beliefs of others (which includes you champ). What's really funny (ironic) is that Guislapp is only a surface ally, while your fellow Christians are only surface opposition.

[champion110]

Guislapp is not accepting or unaccepting. In keeping with his belief, Guislapp has said more than once that his interest is in himself. He only interjects here when he senses an opportunity to besmirch the religious beliefs of others (which includes you champ). What's really funny (ironic) is that Guislapp is only a surface ally, while your fellow Christians are only surface opposition.

Good point......