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Well, I can say this, I am confident enough in that knowledge that I will risk my eternity on it. That is pretty certain in my book. You have every right to disagree, but, if I am wrong, I have lost nothing- if you are wrong, eternity is going to be a very unhappy time for you.Originally Posted by Chris29
Those two statements are kind of contradictory. Confident enough to risk your eternity on it, yet if you are wrong you lose nothing. Don't have to be very confident at all to take that risk v. reward.
I am confident enough that you are wrong that I am willing to take a much bigger risk (at least in your mind).
Not wanting an argument, but I truly hope for your sake that you have a 180 experience on this.
Good old Memorial Gym
Belief is not knowing. This shouldn't be that hard of a concept to grasp. I am not telling you (or anyone else) that you are wrong in your beliefs, but they are exactly that -- beliefs. You can believe that God exists and have faith that you will go to Heaven, but if you can't prove it, then it is just faith. Believing something to a fault does not make it fact. Christians know they are right. Muslims know they are right. Mormons know they are right. Jews know they are right. The list goes on. But if everyone knows that their beliefs are the one and only way to salvation, then that means someone is wrong in their beliefs. You believe you are the one that is right and everyone else is wrong. Power to you. But you don't know that. You believe it. You have faith. But you don't know. To know would make you more than human. If you can't understand that, then there's probably nothing I can say that will make you see my point.
Maddawg- Your chair example disproves nothing. It actually backs my point. Faith that the chair will hold you isn't knowing the chair will hold you. I have faith that a chair will hold me bc chairs have been PROVEN countless times to hold me. That is hard evidence. There is no hard evidence of God's existence. To some people, the complexity of humans and consciousness and Earth and outer space points to an almighty creator. To others, it points in the opposite direction. Who is right and who is wrong? Of course you think you are right, as does most everyone. But that is not KNOWING that you are right. You believe you are right. Doesn't make it right. That is pretty simple.
I can sit in a chair, and repeat over and over until I am satisfied. At that point, I know the chair will hold me, so it's no longer about faith bc it has been proven.
God's existence is based solely on faith. There is nothing wrong with having faith. But it is absolutely wrong to say believing is knowing.
I challenge any of you non believers to read the Bible from cover to cover. As you read it, ask God to reveal Himself to you if He is real. Then report back your findings. So, you know, He is not obligated to reveal anything to us, but He has many times through His word. The Bible is the only book that makes the claims that it does about Jesus, the Son of God being the only way to heaven. You can say it is an easy thing to write and an easy thing to accept, but many stumble over that very issue and can't accept it. Try to read the whole thing in a year or less and see if you believe differently. The eternal stakes are very high and we only have so many chances to get it figured out. Here's one now.
Yeah, tried that and it had the opposite effect. Personally, I don't know how someone could read this book and not become more convinced that all these stories are just Stone Age fables. It is only in an environment where people are socially conditioned do accept these stories that people would be likely to CHOOSE to believe them. Which also explains why different religions are and have been popular in different regions. There is a strong cultural and environmental persuasive element that keeps these belief systems alive - and there is also the fact that most would prefer not to accept their own mortality.
How do you non believing Jesus people explain a miracle or a healing? A circumstance of events?
“Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it.”
Lou Holtz - Football Coach
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." - Thomas Jefferson
"Bring back the rotary phone so we don't have to press 1 for English."
www.casadice.com
Jesus of Nazareth carried the cross and died on that cross...for you and me. I definitely do not want to accept my mortality. Death has been conquered!
“Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it.”
Lou Holtz - Football Coach
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." - Thomas Jefferson
"Bring back the rotary phone so we don't have to press 1 for English."
www.casadice.com
What miracle? Healing can either be natural (the body fights to live) or by medical intervention. Sometimes doctors also make an inaccurate prognosis.
And if suppose the question can be reversed - how do you Jesus believing people explain the torture and atrocities that a god allows to be inflicted onto innocent children. If he can magically heal then he could magically protect them as well.
“Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it.”
Lou Holtz - Football Coach
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." - Thomas Jefferson
"Bring back the rotary phone so we don't have to press 1 for English."
www.casadice.com
He does. Everyday.
But it's not magic. It's Providence.
Up til now, I've quietly kept to myself and read the banter amongst everyone, mostly to see where everyone stands and to see some of the points made both ways. None of the things I say are intended to push anyone to one side or the other; my statements are merely to present my thoughts and experiences as a short testimony of my life and keep the discussion going. If they happen to give you a "light bulb" moment, great. If not, at least I got to say what I wanted to, and now you know me a little better than you did before.
Just to "come clean," I am a born-again Christian. This hasn't always been the case, however. I was not raised in church, and never attended a church service til I was around 12 years old. I went with my family to every service for about 18 months, and had some great experiences, but in my young mind, I don't think I was able to fully grasp or understand the teachings of the Lord and how Christianity "works" so to speak. I did get baptized in water, but for the most part, I was just going through the motions and making friends. I spent the next 9 years or so out of the church, and while I believed in God, there was no way I could say I was living a good life. I battled some really hard times in high school and college, but I won't get in to all the details on a public forum such as this (although I'm pretty open about myself if you care to talk personally).
I met my girlfriend a little over 2 years ago, and she's been in church most of her life. I started going with her occasionally, but didn't really approach it with much desire to give myself over to God. About 8-9 months later, some events took place that really shook my family, and we all started going to church together. It took me some time, but I could really feel the Holy Spirit working in me, and one night at church, God really opened my eyes and revealed himself to me in a way that I could've never imagined. I gave my life back over to Him that night, and while giving up everything of my past hasn't always been easy, I'm at a point in my life where I've never felt this good. I've been filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues (see the book of Acts), and I'm here to tell you that it's not a result of "just some jumbled up words you thought up." It's a true, physical experience with the Living God. One night, I saw one of my grandfather's best friends, who spent the first 60+ years of his life out of church, get completely healed of a frozen shoulder he had for nearly 20 years and filled with the Spirit. This was in a church, not a doctor's office or a magician's stage.
To those comparing Christianity to a gamble, tell me, what do you have to lose? There is nothing, but you can win eternal life. I not only see both sides of the arguments here, I've lived on both sides. I experienced the same things I once thought I could never buy in to. These same experiences are available to anyone who seeks the Father. Like I said, I'm not trying to tell or force anyone to do something because you have that right to choose, but I hope you get something out of this.
I wish Spoon the best of luck. Hope she can find a way to contribute to the game of basketball for a long time to come. Thanks for the memories, Spoon!
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