2016 Presidential Campaign

[T1]

On the other hand,

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...two-evils.html

I don't think Trump is evil. I do think Hillary is evil. Silence in the face of evil is evil. I've got a dilemma. Frick.

[T1]

I'm going to write in Cruz. Solves my dilemma.

The only good thing about Trump is that the politicians would be quick to impeach an amateur in their field, whereas Hillary has a lot of experience avoiding indictments and getting out of the unethical messes she creates. Both parties would be eager to get Trump out of there.

[johnnylightnin]

I was a Cruz guy from the start, but...

There is no doubt that Hillary is worse.

Nothing Trump can do will be worse than what BHO has done in the past 7 years.

The media cannot destroy him.

As an extremely successful business person he understands the need to surround himself with people with know how. Unlike Obama, every move he makes will not be be proceeded by the politically correct thought process.

There's simply no reason to believe those things. Just because you can't imagine something worse doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. You'll know soon whether or not the media can destroy Trump. Up to this point they have made him. Now the pivot takes place.

Trump is the only candidate Hillary would crush. It's looking more and more likely that SHE is behind all of this. They're buddies you know.

I think this is one of the better things I've read from a Christian perspective: 7 Reasons Why a Trump Administration Might be a Good Thing

[RhythmDawg]

On the other hand,

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...two-evils.html




When Christians face two clearly immoral options, we cannot rationalize a vote for immorality or injustice just because we deem the alternative to be worse. The Bible tells us we will be held accountable not only for the evil deeds we do but also when we “give approval to those who practice them” (Rom. 1:32).


This side of the New Jerusalem, we will never have a perfect candidate. But we cannot vote for evil, even if it’s our only option.

Yeah, that's way out of context. How about Romans 13:1-14, Titus 3:1-11, 1 Timothy 2:1-2, 1 Corinthians 1:10, Ecclesiastes 10:20, Proverbs 21:1, Proverbs 16:33, and the other 100 or so more?

And my personal favorite...SAVE THIS ONE WOOF...Ecclesiastes 10:2 - A wise man's heart inclines him to the right, but a fool's heart to the left.

[johnnylightnin]

Yeah, that's way out of context.

Interesting. What'd you make of the article?

[RhythmDawg]

Interesting. What'd you make of the article?

It's funny you asked. I typed a response to it, and then deleted it. Superficially, I agree in principle, but there are several pretenses and associations in it with which I disagree. Give me a bit and I will expound in another post so we can discuss. I am always open to be convinced otherwise...although Woof doesn't believe me.

[RhythmDawg]

Interesting. What'd you make of the article?

1. Associating a Trump administration with God’s judgement is ridiculous. First, I don’t believe that God gets that involved in macro things such as that. This world is full of sin, pain, suffering, death, and evil, and he allows it. He doesn’t cause it. Could it be God’s judgment on the nation? Sure. Is it? Highly unlikely I believe, and not any more unlikely than any other administration, or government around the world throughout history. But does the Bible record such instances? Yes.
2. This is stupid. Nothing in society has changed in millennia. Donald Trump isn’t all of a sudden going to cause some great epiphany regarding egotism, pride, or insolence. Any idiot paying attention to the world, especially Christ followers and other morally devout religious followers, can see America’s and the world’s cultures and societies chronically infected with this stuff, and it is killing us. Any perceived hypocrisy or evasion of them are simply sales pitches…mere propaganda designed to sell to a lost world. I don’t see this as meaning or changing anything for any religious group. It just means that American society is going to put a blinking neon sign on it and wallow in it. And they are fine with it. I don’t think this gives enough credit to voters’ awareness, as limited as it might be.
3. They are all salesmen with priorities and agendas. All of them. Ignorance is the only thing that can keep people from realizing that.
4. I completely agree with this one.
5. This one bothers me. First, no it won’t. Second, if Trump’s administration was going to, many other events – even administrations – should have already done this. Third, it shouldn’t have to…which is also a major reason why it won’t.
6. Trump is not an “autocratic despot” – which is kind of redundant. Can a despot not be autocratic? Trump is a businessman, and a salesman. He makes deals, builds relationships, and does what is required to be successful at business. Any business owner or salesman should be able to see exactly what he is doing. What people see in him is exactly what makes most people not like salesmen. But there are some really talented, really successful, really wealthy salesmen in this world. He is one of them. That is why I have no issue with his failed businesses, his relationships with liberals over the years, or his outsourcing overseas.
7. America is already humiliated. If American’s are not already humiliated, then we have bigger problems…and we certainly have bigger problems. Then, in that last paragraph…”a preacher who cannot preach a message of repentance to a nation that chose Trump…” Really? Do preachers really need a Trump presidency to do that? I’m pretty sure there is plenty to go on already, even outside of politics.

This entire article is political propaganda under the guise of a perverted Christian perspective. So yes, I have a problem with it.

But that is just my opinion.

[inudesu]

Yeah, that's way out of context. How about Romans 13:1-14, Titus 3:1-11, 1 Timothy 2:1-2, 1 Corinthians 1:10, Ecclesiastes 10:20, Proverbs 21:1, Proverbs 16:33, and the other 100 or so more?

He quotes at least one of those in the article*.



*the Moore article, not the one Johnny linked.

[PawDawg]

There's simply no reason to believe those things. Just because you can't imagine something worse doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. You'll know soon whether or not the media can destroy Trump. Up to this point they have made him. Now the pivot takes place.

Trump is the only candidate Hillary would crush. It's looking more and more likely that SHE is behind all of this. They're buddies you know.

I think this is one of the better things I've read from a Christian perspective: 7 Reasons Why a Trump Administration Might be a Good Thing

Your argument is "Hillary will be better for America than Trump."

That's not true.

[johnnylightnin]

Your argument is "Hillary will be better for America than Trump."

That's not true.

That's not my argument. My argument is that those who say "that's not true" are not basing that opinion on anything other than wishful thinking.

[johnnylightnin]

1. Associating a Trump administration with God’s judgement is ridiculous. First, I don’t believe that God gets that involved in macro things such as that. This world is full of sin, pain, suffering, death, and evil, and he allows it. He doesn’t cause it. Could it be God’s judgment on the nation? Sure. Is it? Highly unlikely I believe, and not any more unlikely than any other administration, or government around the world throughout history. But does the Bible record such instances? Yes.
2. This is stupid. Nothing in society has changed in millennia. Donald Trump isn’t all of a sudden going to cause some great epiphany regarding egotism, pride, or insolence. Any idiot paying attention to the world, especially Christ followers and other morally devout religious followers, can see America’s and the world’s cultures and societies chronically infected with this stuff, and it is killing us. Any perceived hypocrisy or evasion of them are simply sales pitches…mere propaganda designed to sell to a lost world. I don’t see this as meaning or changing anything for any religious group. It just means that American society is going to put a blinking neon sign on it and wallow in it. And they are fine with it. I don’t think this gives enough credit to voters’ awareness, as limited as it might be.
3. They are all salesmen with priorities and agendas. All of them. Ignorance is the only thing that can keep people from realizing that.
4. I completely agree with this one.
5. This one bothers me. First, no it won’t. Second, if Trump’s administration was going to, many other events – even administrations – should have already done this. Third, it shouldn’t have to…which is also a major reason why it won’t.
6. Trump is not an “autocratic despot” – which is kind of redundant. Can a despot not be autocratic? Trump is a businessman, and a salesman. He makes deals, builds relationships, and does what is required to be successful at business. Any business owner or salesman should be able to see exactly what he is doing. What people see in him is exactly what makes most people not like salesmen. But there are some really talented, really successful, really wealthy salesmen in this world. He is one of them. That is why I have no issue with his failed businesses, his relationships with liberals over the years, or his outsourcing overseas.
7. America is already humiliated. If American’s are not already humiliated, then we have bigger problems…and we certainly have bigger problems. Then, in that last paragraph…”a preacher who cannot preach a message of repentance to a nation that chose Trump…” Really? Do preachers really need a Trump presidency to do that? I’m pretty sure there is plenty to go on already, even outside of politics.

This entire article is political propaganda under the guise of a perverted Christian perspective. So yes, I have a problem with it.

But that is just my opinion.

There's a lot there and I'm not sure what the numbers are tied to.

My question would be, what's the propaganda? What's perverted about Moore's perspective? He's been the dean of the flagship seminary of the SBC and currently serves as the ERLC executive director. His Christian bona fides are pretty well vetted. What's his end game?

[johnnylightnin]

1. Associating a Trump administration with God’s judgement is ridiculous. First, I don’t believe that God gets that involved in macro things such as that. This world is full of sin, pain, suffering, death, and evil, and he allows it. He doesn’t cause it. Could it be God’s judgment on the nation? Sure. Is it? Highly unlikely I believe, and not any more unlikely than any other administration, or government around the world throughout history. But does the Bible record such instances? Yes.
2. This is stupid. Nothing in society has changed in millennia. Donald Trump isn’t all of a sudden going to cause some great epiphany regarding egotism, pride, or insolence. Any idiot paying attention to the world, especially Christ followers and other morally devout religious followers, can see America’s and the world’s cultures and societies chronically infected with this stuff, and it is killing us. Any perceived hypocrisy or evasion of them are simply sales pitches…mere propaganda designed to sell to a lost world. I don’t see this as meaning or changing anything for any religious group. It just means that American society is going to put a blinking neon sign on it and wallow in it. And they are fine with it. I don’t think this gives enough credit to voters’ awareness, as limited as it might be.
3. They are all salesmen with priorities and agendas. All of them. Ignorance is the only thing that can keep people from realizing that.
4. I completely agree with this one.
5. This one bothers me. First, no it won’t. Second, if Trump’s administration was going to, many other events – even administrations – should have already done this. Third, it shouldn’t have to…which is also a major reason why it won’t.
6. Trump is not an “autocratic despot” – which is kind of redundant. Can a despot not be autocratic? Trump is a businessman, and a salesman. He makes deals, builds relationships, and does what is required to be successful at business. Any business owner or salesman should be able to see exactly what he is doing. What people see in him is exactly what makes most people not like salesmen. But there are some really talented, really successful, really wealthy salesmen in this world. He is one of them. That is why I have no issue with his failed businesses, his relationships with liberals over the years, or his outsourcing overseas.
7. America is already humiliated. If American’s are not already humiliated, then we have bigger problems…and we certainly have bigger problems. Then, in that last paragraph…”a preacher who cannot preach a message of repentance to a nation that chose Trump…” Really? Do preachers really need a Trump presidency to do that? I’m pretty sure there is plenty to go on already, even outside of politics.

This entire article is political propaganda under the guise of a perverted Christian perspective. So yes, I have a problem with it.

But that is just my opinion.

Ah...got it now. You're responding to Wilson. What did you think of Moore's article? I figured Wilson's would rub you the wrong way. I'd say that he's one of the most thorough thinkers in Christendom...but he's certainly provocative.

[nadB]

Some of y'all on here have already had your go at it with Jimmy Carter.

[RhythmDawg]

Ah...got it now. You're responding to Wilson. What did you think of Moore's article? I figured Wilson's would rub you the wrong way. I'd say that he's one of the most thorough thinkers in Christendom...but he's certainly provocative.

My fault! I thought you were referring to the wilson article. i am struggling to think of a time when I have wholly disagreed with anything Russell Moore has ever written. In the case of this article, I agree with it almost in its entirety. However, the last two paragraphs I disagree with...but it is because of my personal choice of how to respond to the circumstances. I don't hold Moore in contempt at all for his. But "we cannot vote for evil, even if it's our only option." We are all evil, and evil is our only option every time we vote. Should we revolt and not pay taxes also? Because our taxes are used for all kinds of evil.

My philosophy is founded in exactly what Moore stated..."unless Jesus of Nazareth is on the ballot, any election forces us to choose the lesser of evils." That is in contradiction to his last paragraph...specifically the excerpt I quoted above. And Moore doesn't usually make, what I am going to classify as a mistake, like that. That means that all choices, in some way, are immoral. Even in picking and choosing qualifying areas, like gun control, racism, abortion, etc., there is fault because a candidate's stance on any of those is no worse than another, and no worse than anything I ever have thought, said, or done. Therefore, I do not vote for candidates based on individual issues, including abortion. I do not vote for candidates based on individual actions or individual statements. I vote, to the best of my ability, for who I think is the best candidate - regardless of how bad they are. I am not responsible for who the final candidates are. I am not responsible for what they think, say, and do. They are responsible for themselves in those ways. I have an awareness that they are all elected by a fallen humanity with sinful desires. My responsibility, I believe, is to participate within the power that I have been blessed with, and have faith that God will do the rest. To be a citizen of my country, my country calls for me to vote...and not to be silent. I believe God calls for me to vote...and not to be silent.

I believe Jesus would be first in line at the voting booth, before and after casting his vote spending much time in prayer for our country's leaders.

Again, just my opinion. But I appreciate you asking for it.

[inudesu]

My philosophy is founded in exactly what Moore stated..."unless Jesus of Nazareth is on the ballot, any election forces us to choose the lesser of evils." That is in contradiction to his last paragraph...specifically the excerpt I quoted above.

I think the over-arching point is that while the "lesser of two evils" thinking in the American political process has its place, there are limits. And he gives examples (of both cases). He has voted for people he disagreed with on some topics (anyone who has voted has done this). But he gives other examples where both candidates crossed lines he wasn't comfortable with and he voted third party or write-in.

My point in bringing it up (again) is that it's certainly true to some extent that sometimes our political process encourages us to vote for the least bad choice but that it's ok to stick to principles when neither choice is palatable. Everyone's line is going to be different, and Trump won't be across that line for everyone who disagrees with him. But not voting or voting third party or writing in a vote isn't simply "doubling the value of some diehard's vote" as if you're abdicating responsibility for the outcome.