Global Warming Cont...

[saltydawg]

If he believed what he said he would consume less energy because the more energy he consumes, the more CO2 goes into the atmosphere.

Are you suggesting that he should eliminate all of his use of fossil fuels? That the only people that can use fossil fuels are those that don't accept the reality of AGW?

The fallacy of your thinking is that his use of fossil fuels is revelent to the notion that AGW exists and is a serious threat to the well-being of the planet. It isn't. The fact that he uses fossil fuels, no matter the quantity, merely reflects the reality of the world in which he lives..

Since I believe in the marketplace, the marketplace should be the mechanism to change his behavior. I'm all in favor of imposing a pricing schedule on users of fossil fuels that requires higher prices for higher use. So, if he was paying $300,000 a year instead of $30,000 perhaps his behavior of using energy would change.

[Guisslapp]

Are you suggesting that he should eliminate all of his use of fossil fuels? That the only people that can use fossil fuels are those that don't accept the reality of AGW?

The fallacy of your thinking is that his use of fossil fuels is revelent to the notion that AGW exists and is a serious threat to the well-being of the planet. It isn't. The fact that he uses fossil fuels, no matter the quantity, merely reflects the reality of the world in which he lives..

Since I believe in the marketplace, the marketplace should be the mechanism to change his behavior. I'm all in favor of imposing a pricing schedule on users of fossil fuels that requires higher prices for higher use. So, if he was paying $300,000 a year instead of $30,000 perhaps his behavior of using energy would change.

You are one weird dude.

Surely he could consume less than $30,000 of energy and still manage to live quite comfortably. I suspect he would find a way to consume approximately the same amount of energy as average citizens if he wanted to (read: if he believed his message). You might want to wipe that Kool-aid mustache off - it makes you look like Bozo.

You only think you believe in the marketplace. Your suggestions reveal the opposite.

[saltydawg]

You are one weird dude.

Surely he could consume less than $30,000 of energy and still manage to live quite comfortably. I suspect he would find a way to consume approximately the same amount of energy as average citizens if he wanted to (read: if he believed his message). You might want to wipe that Kool-aid mustache off - it makes you look like Bozo.

You only think you believe in the marketplace. Your suggestions reveal the opposite.

And here I was thinking that you were one weird dude. LOL!

I don't think you are familliar with the lifestyles of the rich and famous, but it doesn't really matter.

Once again, you are substituting illogical comments for meaningful discussion. The fallacy of your thinking is that you think there is some linkage between Al Gore and the reality of AGW. Once AGAIN, there isn't. So please stop using 5th grade reasoning to argue, it just makes you look bad and discredits Ayn.

[saltydawg]

This just in: Al Gore moves from his huge Belle Meade mansion with 20 rooms and 8 baths to live in a mobile home park outside Nashville. AGW now conclusively proven to to all the skeptics. ROTFLMAO!

[randerizer]

Once again, you are substituting illogical comments for meaningful discussion. The fallacy of your thinking is that you think there is some linkage between Al Gore and the reality of AGW. Once AGAIN, there isn't. So please stop using 5th grade reasoning to argue, it just makes you look bad and discredits Ayn.

So what causes AGW again?

I think that every single Randian "hero" i've ever encountered (figuratively, such as John Galt, Dagny Taggart, Hank Reardon, Howard Roark) "practice what they preach."

Not that you are wrong to act in your rational self-interest (read here as make money), but acting in your rational self-interest can only occur if you are using your ability to reason to its fullest ability. Note that "knowledge" cannot conflict itself in a well-reasoned mind. So, if Gore has come to the conclusion (whether it is a valid or invalid conclusion is another issue) that AGW is a problem to ALL INDIVIDUALS, and that we should limit FF use to solve the problem at the expense of our lifestyle/productivity (so he says), then he should certainly feel free to pass that message along, as it is in his rational self-interest (as an individual that will suffer from AGW) to do so. It's also in his rational self-interest to get market value (or better, if he can) for his message. And it is certainly at his discretion to spend the money as he pleases.

However, if he has come to the conclusion that human FF consumption is the problem that needs to be solved, a reasoned mind would not separate individual actions from that problem.

Either, he is making a rational decision to subvert individuals into buying the AGW hype (to his financial benefit), or he is not acting in his rational self-interest by consuming way more FF than he would have to while knowing that he is endangering the planet and his future well-being.

Or, he's making a silly collective/individual distinction, because he just doesn't want to sacrifice his lifestyle unless he can force everyone else to do so as well. In other words, he understands power systems of government, and he wants to use those to his advantage in every possible way over others. This individual, in fact, was despised by Rand over ALL others.

[Bill Pup60]

BillPup, I read an interesting factoid a few days ago.....In 2001 an average gas well was depleted 19% in its first year of production. Today, that depletion rate is 31%. Any comments?

First, exactly what is an "average" gas well?????? The whole concept of this "factoid" is phoney!

How much a given well depletes in its' first year (or in any year, for that matter) is dependant on many facts. Reservoir porosity and permeability, reservoir pressure, how many other wells are producing from the same reservoir, the well spacing, wellbore "skin" effects, how rich is the gas (how much entrained liquids is it carrying at reservoir conditions) how restrictive is the wellbore tubing, how restrictive is the surface piping system, what is the market demand, etc etc.

Bottom line: some wells may produce half of its' recoverable reserve in the first year, some may produce less than 5 %. No way to make any sense of factoid like that unless you have a lot more of the relevant data.

[saltydawg]

So what causes AGW again?

I think that every single Randian "hero" i've ever encountered (figuratively, such as John Galt, Dagny Taggart, Hank Reardon, Howard Roark) "practice what they preach."

Not that you are wrong to act in your rational self-interest (read here as make money), but acting in your rational self-interest can only occur if you are using your ability to reason to its fullest ability. Note that "knowledge" cannot conflict itself in a well-reasoned mind. So, if Gore has come to the conclusion (whether it is a valid or invalid conclusion is another issue) that AGW is a problem to ALL INDIVIDUALS, and that we should limit FF use to solve the problem at the expense of our lifestyle/productivity (so he says), then he should certainly feel free to pass that message along, as it is in his rational self-interest (as an individual that will suffer from AGW) to do so. It's also in his rational self-interest to get market value (or better, if he can) for his message. And it is certainly at his discretion to spend the money as he pleases.

However, if he has come to the conclusion that human FF consumption is the problem that needs to be solved, a reasoned mind would not separate individual actions from that problem.

Either, he is making a rational decision to subvert individuals into buying the AGW hype (to his financial benefit), or he is not acting in his rational self-interest by consuming way more FF than he would have to while knowing that he is endangering the planet and his future well-being.

Or, he's making a silly collective/individual distinction, because he just doesn't want to sacrifice his lifestyle unless he can force everyone else to do so as well. In other words, he understands power systems of government, and he wants to use those to his advantage in every possible way over others. This individual, in fact, was despised by Rand over ALL others.

What is causing AGW is an increasing and un-natural rise in greenhouse gases, primarily CO2. The atmospheric physics of the relationship of greenhouse gases and the surface temperature of Earth is well established. Hence, the validity of ice core readings of past CO2 levels is not critical to a determination about what will happen, i.e., increased atmospheric CO2 levels will increase the average global temperature. This is a slow process so changes will occur in incremental movements.

Frankly, what Al Gore and Ayn Rand have/have not in common with AGW is not revelant. Kind of like using an exposed homosexual Christian preacher to say that Christianity is not a meaningful religion.

But I will agree that everyone, including Al Gore, *should* reduce their use of fossil fuels. I know that I am, especially when the price of them increases.

[saltydawg]

First, exactly what is an "average" gas well?????? The whole concept of this "factoid" is phoney!

How much a given well depletes in its' first year (or in any year, for that matter) is dependant on many facts. Reservoir porosity and permeability, reservoir pressure, how many other wells are producing from the same reservoir, the well spacing, wellbore "skin" effects, how rich is the gas (how much entrained liquids is it carrying at reservoir conditions) how restrictive is the wellbore tubing, how restrictive is the surface piping system, what is the market demand, etc etc.

Bottom line: some wells may produce half of its' recoverable reserve in the first year, some may produce less than 5 %. No way to make any sense of factoid like that unless you have a lot more of the relevant data.

Well, for purposes of this factoid, I guess an "average" gas well is deterrmined to be the total number of gas wells drilled in 2001 divided by their total one year depletion rate. It seems to me to be a valid number although as you pointed out there is no such thing as an "average" gas well.

If the statement is true, it would appear that the quality of the newly drilled gas reservoirs is declining.

[Guisslapp]

Well, for purposes of this factoid, I guess an "average" gas well is deterrmined to be the total number of gas wells drilled in 2001 divided by their total one year depletion rate. It seems to me to be a valid number although as you pointed out there is no such thing as an "average" gas well.

If the statement is true, it would appear that the quality of the newly drilled gas reservoirs is declining.

You mean diminishing returns?

[saltydawg]

You mean diminishing returns?

That's what I trying to find out from BillPup. Why the change in the depletion rate. We have drilled in the last five years the same number of gas wells that were producing in 2001. The rig count is at a very high level, perhaps an all-time record.

[saltydawg]

Yes, this just had to be posted under this thread as well.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/2...wHK_e9pbzw --


POWER: GORE MANSION USES 20X AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD; CONSUMPTION INCREASE AFTER 'TRUTH'
Mon Feb 26 2007 17:16:14 ET

Gore paid nearly $30,000 in combined electricity and natural gas bills for his Nashville estate in 2006.

The Tennessee Center for Policy Research, an independent, nonprofit and nonpartisan research organization committed to achieving a freer, more prosperous Tennessee through free market policy solutions, issued a press release late Monday:



Last night, Al Gore’s global-warming documentary, An Inconvenient Truth, collected an Oscar for best documentary feature, but the Tennessee Center for Policy Research has found that Gore deserves a gold statue for hypocrisy.

Gore’s mansion, [20-room, eight-bathroom] located in the posh Belle Meade area of Nashville, consumes more electricity every month than the average American household uses in an entire year, according to the Nashville Electric Service (NES).

In his documentary, the former Vice President calls on Americans to conserve energy by reducing electricity consumption at home.

The average household in America consumes 10,656 kilowatt-hours (kWh) per year, according to the Department of Energy. In 2006, Gore devoured nearly 221,000 kWh—more than 20 times the national average.

Last August alone, Gore burned through 22,619 kWh—guzzling more than twice the electricity in one month than an average American family uses in an entire year. As a result of his energy consumption, Gore’s average monthly electric bill topped $1,359.

Since the release of An Inconvenient Truth, Gore’s energy consumption has increased from an average of 16,200 kWh per month in 2005, to 18,400 kWh per month in 2006.

Gore’s extravagant energy use does not stop at his electric bill. Natural gas bills for Gore’s mansion and guest house averaged $1,080 per month last year.

“As the spokesman of choice for the global warming movement, Al Gore has to be willing to walk to walk, not just talk the talk, when it comes to home energy use,” said Tennessee Center for Policy Research President Drew Johnson.

In total, Gore paid nearly $30,000 in combined electricity and natural gas bills for his Nashville estate in 2006.

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash.htm

THE REST OF THE STORY......

(02-27) 15:10 PST Nashville, Tenn. (AP) --

Al Gore, a leading voice in the fight against global warming, is being called a hypocrite by a conservative group that claims his Nashville mansion uses too much electricity. But a spokeswoman for Gore said the former vice president invests in enough renewable energy to make up for the home's power consumption.

Gore's documentary film "An Inconvenient Truth" won an Oscar on Sunday for chronicling his campaign against global warming.

The next day, the Tennessee Center for Policy Research put out a news release saying Gore was not doing enough to reduce his own consumption of electricity.

"We wanted to see if he was living by his own recommendations and walking the walk," said Drew Johnson, president of the think tank that pushes for conservative economic issues.

Utility records show the Gore family paid an average monthly electric bill of about $1,200 last year for its 10,000-square foot home.

The Gores used about 191,000 kilowatt-hours in 2006, according to bills reviewed by The Associated Press spanning the period from Feb. 3, 2006, to Jan. 5. That is far more than the typical Nashville household, which uses about 15,600 kilowatt-hours per year.

A spokeswoman for Gore said he purchases enough "green power" — renewable energy sources such as solar, wind and methane gas — to balance 100 percent of his electricity costs.

"Sometimes when people don't like the message, in this case that global warming is real, it's convenient to attack the messenger," Gore spokeswoman Kalee Kreider said.

Gore participates in a utility program that sells blocks of "green power" for an extra $4 a month. Gore purchases 108 such blocks every month, covering 16,200 kilowatt-hours and helping subsidize renewable energy sources.

Johnson said it's unclear whether global warming is caused by humans, and he said the threat outlined in Gore's documentary is exaggerated.

The think tank said Gore used nearly 221,000 kilowatt hours last year and that his average monthly electric bill was $1,359. Johnson said his group got its figures from Nashville Electric Service.

But electric company spokeswoman Laurie Parker said the utility never got a request from the policy center and never provided them with any information.

Parker said Gore has been purchasing the "green power" for $432 a month since November. The Gore home is also under renovation to add solar panels, Kreider said.

Gore also owns homes in Carthage, Tenn., and in the Washington area.

Gore has said he leads a "carbon-neutral lifestyle." To balance out other carbon emissions, the Gores invest money in projects to reduce energy consumption around the globe, Kreider said.

"For every ton of carbon they emit, he offsets that by doing investments in renewable energy sources," Kreider said.

Johnson said those efforts were unconvincing.

"In general, I applaud his efforts to reduce energy consumption, but if he is going to be a spokesman for global warming, he has to be willing to make the same sacrifices," Johnson said.

Johnson said Gore's home has gas lamps lining his driveway, a heated pool and an electric gate — all of which would be easy to do without.

"He's not doing enough in his home to be going around telling other people how to reduce consumption," Johnson said.

Focusing on Gore's personal electricity consumption misses the point of "An Inconvenient Truth," Kreider said, which is that governments and the public can work together to reduce emissions.

___

[altadawg]

That's what I trying to find out from BillPup. Why the change in the depletion rate. We have drilled in the last five years the same number of gas wells that were producing in 2001. The rig count is at a very high level, perhaps an all-time record.

There are many factors in how much gas an average well produces. Cavedawg would be a good source on this subject.

[arkansasbob]

THE REST OF THE STORY......

(02-27) 15:10 PST Nashville, Tenn. (AP) --

Al Gore, a leading voice in the fight against global warming, is being called a hypocrite by a conservative group that claims his Nashville mansion uses too much electricity. But a spokeswoman for Gore said the former vice president invests in enough renewable energy to make up for the home's power consumption.

Gore's documentary film "An Inconvenient Truth" won an Oscar on Sunday for chronicling his campaign against global warming.

The next day, the Tennessee Center for Policy Research put out a news release saying Gore was not doing enough to reduce his own consumption of electricity.

"We wanted to see if he was living by his own recommendations and walking the walk," said Drew Johnson, president of the think tank that pushes for conservative economic issues.

Utility records show the Gore family paid an average monthly electric bill of about $1,200 last year for its 10,000-square foot home.

The Gores used about 191,000 kilowatt-hours in 2006, according to bills reviewed by The Associated Press spanning the period from Feb. 3, 2006, to Jan. 5. That is far more than the typical Nashville household, which uses about 15,600 kilowatt-hours per year.

A spokeswoman for Gore said he purchases enough "green power" — renewable energy sources such as solar, wind and methane gas — to balance 100 percent of his electricity costs.

"Sometimes when people don't like the message, in this case that global warming is real, it's convenient to attack the messenger," Gore spokeswoman Kalee Kreider said.

Gore participates in a utility program that sells blocks of "green power" for an extra $4 a month. Gore purchases 108 such blocks every month, covering 16,200 kilowatt-hours and helping subsidize renewable energy sources.

Johnson said it's unclear whether global warming is caused by humans, and he said the threat outlined in Gore's documentary is exaggerated.

The think tank said Gore used nearly 221,000 kilowatt hours last year and that his average monthly electric bill was $1,359. Johnson said his group got its figures from Nashville Electric Service.

But electric company spokeswoman Laurie Parker said the utility never got a request from the policy center and never provided them with any information.

Parker said Gore has been purchasing the "green power" for $432 a month since November. The Gore home is also under renovation to add solar panels, Kreider said.

Gore also owns homes in Carthage, Tenn., and in the Washington area.

Gore has said he leads a "carbon-neutral lifestyle." To balance out other carbon emissions, the Gores invest money in projects to reduce energy consumption around the globe, Kreider said.

"For every ton of carbon they emit, he offsets that by doing investments in renewable energy sources," Kreider said.

Johnson said those efforts were unconvincing.

"In general, I applaud his efforts to reduce energy consumption, but if he is going to be a spokesman for global warming, he has to be willing to make the same sacrifices," Johnson said.

Johnson said Gore's home has gas lamps lining his driveway, a heated pool and an electric gate — all of which would be easy to do without.

"He's not doing enough in his home to be going around telling other people how to reduce consumption," Johnson said.

Focusing on Gore's personal electricity consumption misses the point of "An Inconvenient Truth," Kreider said, which is that governments and the public can work together to reduce emissions.

___

that is the most rediculous thing i've ever heard. he can use all the energy he wants because he can afford to make up the difference! if he really believed in what he was preaching, he would reduce his energy usage like he is telling everyone else to do, AND use his wealth to help acheive more "clean" energy. i don't have a problem with him using a lot of energy, just with him asking others to do something he's not willing to do.

[arkansasbob]

salty, rander, guiss:

two of you really need to change your avatar. i am actually having to read the content of the post to tell who is who.
i vote that guisslap dumps ayn and goes back to leonard -- he's cuter anyway.:icon_wink:
and saltydawg needs to go back to the "saint clinton" avatar.

[Dawgbitten]

that is the most rediculous thing i've ever heard. he can use all the energy he wants because he can afford to make up the difference! if he really believed in what he was preaching, he would reduce his energy usage like he is telling everyone else to do, AND use his wealth to help acheive more "clean" energy. i don't have a problem with him using a lot of energy, just with him asking others to do something he's not willing to do.

I have to agree.